When did western Catholics set a definitive number of sacraments?

[mmmcounts]

Some of the more ancient forms of Christianity have a certain understanding of what it means for something to be sacramental, but they do so without setting a definitive list of sacramental rites. I assume it used to be something like this for Latin-rite Catholics at some point too, or perhaps for the western Catholics that preceded them. So my question is: At what point did western Catholics set a definitive list of sacraments? Was it before or after marriage was sacramental? Did it initially include seven sacraments, or was it a smaller number? Also, what prompted such a list for those Catholics while other Catholics went on without one? Did it have something to do with catechesis, some philosophical influence that was unique to those Christians, or a set of controversies that was unique to the area? Perhaps something different?

 

[Root of Jesse]

All our Catholic Sacraments were instituted by Christ. Baptism is the gateway sacrament, Confirmation allows you to affirm your faith, Confession allows you to stay closer to God, Eucharist, Marriage, of course, Holy Orders, and Anointing of the Sick. All come straight from the Bible. For what it's worth, we Catholics all have all 7 sacraments. And we believe that a sacrament is a sign that does what it signifies. I hope that helps.

 

[ebia]

Some of the more ancient forms of Christianity have a certain understanding of what it means for something to be sacramental, but they do so without setting a definitive list of sacramental rites. I assume it used to be something like this for Latin-rite Catholics at some point too, or perhaps for the western Catholics that preceded them. So my question is: At what point did western Catholics set a definitive list of sacraments? Was it before or after marriage was sacramental? Did it initially include seven sacraments, or was it a smaller number? Also, what prompted such a list for those Catholics while other Catholics went on without one? Did it have something to do with catechesis, some philosophical influence that was unique to those Christians, or a set of controversies that was unique to the area? Perhaps something different?

The current list of seven originates with Peter Lombard in the twelfth century and gradually became definitive after that.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Council of Trent defined that the seven sacraments of the New Law were instituted by Christ (Sess. VII, can.i). Great article here: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacraments

 

[ebia]

The Council of Trent defined that the seven sacraments of the New Law were instituted by Christ (Sess. VII, can.i). Great article here: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacraments

Trent can try to define history all it likes. The number and list of seven was first formulated by Peter Lombard in the Twelfth Century b

 

[Root of Jesse]

No, the number and list was instituted by Christ. I understand that Lombard wrote about them, but the Council's decision was explicit enough to make the immediate institution of all the sacraments by Christ a matter of defined faith. Now nearly all theologians unite in saying: it is theologically certain, but not defined (de fide) that Christ immediately instituted all the sacraments of the New Law.

That's the Catholic take on it.

 

[ebia]

No, the number and list was instituted by Christ. I understand that Lombard wrote about them, but the Council's decision was explicit enough to make the immediate institution of all the sacraments by Christ a matter of defined faith. Now nearly all theologians unite in saying: it is theologically certain, but not defined (de fide) that Christ immediately instituted all the sacraments of the New Law.

That's the Catholic take on it.

He must have mumbled a lot if it took 12 centuries to decide exactly what he said. And then hey-presto suddenly absolutely clear. And then only in the west.

 

[mmmcounts]

The current list of seven originates with Peter Lombard in the twelfth century and gradually became definitive after that.

Peter Lombard! Twelfth century! That is perfect. I recognize the name, I think I've come across it before. I will look into it more in order to find out exactly why he did what he did- and why that was different from Eastern Catholicism which had just recently become Eastern Orthodoxy at that time. That was perfect!

 

[mmmcounts]

The Council of Trent defined that the seven sacraments of the New Law were instituted by Christ (Sess. VII, can.i). Great article here: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacraments

Excuse me, Root of Jesse, you didn't answer the question that I asked and you decided to try and tell me things that I wasn't asking to hear. I see where your interests lie, though, so let me try to redirect you for a moment. I have a little hypothetical for you.

See, there was this wedding between two Catholics, and I was wondering if it was sacramental or not. Here's the deal: There was no priest involved, there was no Mass, and there was no Eucharist. That's not to say sacraments don't exist, or that priests don't exist, or that the Mass or the Eucharist do not exist. I'm only saying this: The wedding did not have a priest involved, there was no Mass at this wedding, the Eucharist was not a part of the wedding, and it's quite possible that the wedding was not sacramental.

This is what went down instead. Instead of a priest, there is a magistrate. Just a layperson who has civil authority. Not ordained, not a priest, not a part of the clergy in any way. A dowry is exchanged, a piece of paper (or some other legal writ) is procured, and a man gives away his daughter into the care/ownership of her now-husband. It is legal and official because of the magistrate's presence (along with the approval of the men involved- but not the woman). The magistrate has the authority to make it binding.

I was wondering if that sort of wedding is sacramental. Also, and this is much more important, why or why not? I should also add that this was a pretty average wedding between Catholics prior to the 12th century.

So what is the Catholic take on that? (Please don't assume that I'm looking for the Catholic take on everything you think of- just this one thing, please).

 

[Root of Jesse]

If I misunderstood your question, I apologize. But in the hypothetical you propose, I would say that it's legal, but not sacramental. Here's a good article on it from a Catholic perspective. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sacrament of Marriage

FWIW, I will only give a Catholic take on anything I write about. I believe that's the only way to see it. You're free to take it or not.

 

[Erose]

Trent can try to define history all it likes. The number and list of seven was first formulated by Peter Lombard in the Twelfth Century b

Then explain why the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthdox churches all possess the exact same 7 sacraments or mysteries?

 

[Root of Jesse]

He must have mumbled a lot if it took 12 centuries to decide exactly what he said. And then hey-presto suddenly absolutely clear. And then only in the west.

You must not understand that the Catholic Church only defines something 'definitively' when some body of people questions it. For example the two natures of Christ was distinctly defined when there was a disagreement, some saying he was only divine and looked human, some saying he was only human and claimed divinity. The Church studied the teaching of Christ and his followers and definitively decided that he was fully divine and fully human. This same way, Christ instituted all seven sacraments. They are all in scripture, explicitly. Peter Lombard certainly wrote about them-many of the Doctors of the Church did as well, much earlier than Peter Lombard, whether in a body or singly.

 

[Erose]

You must not understand that the Catholic Church only defines something 'definitively' when some body of people questions it. For example the two natures of Christ was distinctly defined when there was a disagreement, some saying he was only divine and looked human, some saying he was only human and claimed divinity. The Church studied the teaching of Christ and his followers and definitively decided that he was fully divine and fully human. This same way, Christ instituted all seven sacraments. They are all in scripture, explicitly. Peter Lombard certainly wrote about them-many of the Doctors of the Church did as well, much earlier than Peter Lombard, whether in a body or singly.

The greatest misunderstanding that non-Catholics have about the Catholic Church and what it means to "define". But hey the only ones who are going to know that is the anti-Catholic apologists and they ignore it anyway.

 

[ebia]

Then explain why the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthdox churches all possess the exact same 7 sacraments or mysteries?

The eastern churches dont number them.

 

[ebia]

You must not understand that the Catholic Church only defines something 'definitively' when some body of people questions it. For example the two natures of Christ was distinctly defined when there was a disagreement, some saying he was only divine and looked human, some saying he was only human and claimed divinity. The Church studied the teaching of Christ and his followers and definitively decided that he was fully divine and fully human. This same way, Christ instituted all seven sacraments. They are all in scripture, explicitly. Peter Lombard certainly wrote about them-many of the Doctors of the Church did as well, much earlier than Peter Lombard, whether in a body or singly.

No-one before Peter Lombard tried to number the sacraments or give the same complete list of what they are.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No-one before Peter Lombard tried to number the sacraments or give the same complete list of what they are.

And yet the Church always knew that there were 7-Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Reconciliation, Eucharist, and Anointing of the Sick...some tried to add and subtract, but the number never wavered...and as Erose said, why does the Eastern Church and the Orthodox Churches have the same number, if they were not known?

 

[ebia]

And yet the Church always knew that there were 7-Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Reconciliation, Eucharist, and Anointing of the Sick...some tried to add and subtract, but the number never wavered...and as Erose said, why does the Eastern Church and the Orthodox Churches have the same number, if they were not known?

The eastern church doesn't draw a line at seven. Nobody did before the twelfth century.

 

[Erose]

The eastern churches dont number them.

Every site I have been to number them Ebia.

Long Catechism of The Orthodox (Eastern)

285. How many are the Sacraments?
Seven: 1. Baptism; 2. Unction with Chrism; 3. Communion; 4. Penitence; 5. Orders; 6. Matrimony; 7. Unction with Oil.

The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com

This is from an Oriental Othodox site:

The Seven Holy Sacraments:
1. The Sacrament of Holy Orders (Priesthood)​

2.​

The Sacrament of Baptism​

3.​

The Sacrament of Confirmation​

4.​

The Sacrament of The Eucharist​

5.​

The Sacrament of Repentance & Confession​

6.​

The Sacrament of The Anointing of The Sick​

7.​

The Sacrament of Matrimony

http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/sacrament1.pdf

From the Assyrians of the East
​

Sacraments

The Sacraments of the Church, according to the Divine Scriptures, are seven in number:
1. The Priesthood, which is the ministry of all the other Sacraments.
2. Holy Baptism.
3. The Oil of Unction.
4. The Oblation of the Body and Blood of CHRIST.
5. Absolution.
6. The Holy Leaven, namely, the king.
7. The sign of the life giving Cross.

Sacraments | Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East - Archdiocese of Australia, New Zealand and Lebanon

Ethiopian Orthodox Church

The Seven Sacraments of the Church
The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church serves the faithful through the seven sacraments. These sacraments are called mysteries because the invisible grace of the Holy Spirit is granted through them. The seven sacraments are:-
1. Baptism 5. Matrimony
2. Confirmation 6. Penance
3. Holy Communion 7. Unction of the Sick
4. Ordination
The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, taking the example of pillars as has been said in the Proverbs of Solomon as a starting point, teaches that there are seven sacraments (Proverbs 9:1). Of the seven, the six sacraments can be performed by a bishop and a priest. Ordination is conferred by a bishop only.

 

[Erose]

And yet the Church always knew that there were 7-Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Reconciliation, Eucharist, and Anointing of the Sick...some tried to add and subtract, but the number never wavered...and as Erose said, why does the Eastern Church and the Orthodox Churches have the same number, if they were not known?

To be fair to Ebia, let us don't forget that categorization came primarily with the scholastics and they were not thought of as 7 early on.

 

[ebia]

To be fair to Ebia, let us don't forget that categorization came primarily with the scholastics and they were not thought of as 7 early on.

And that's all I'm saying