Daniel Marsh
Well-Known Member
- Jun 28, 2015
- 9,866
- 2,671
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
I like to see more proof of this from Scripture and the Fathers, please.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The offering of the Eucharist is a participation in the eternal, ever present, sacrifice of Jesus. We enter in to his sacrifice.
I like to see more proof of this from Scripture and the Fathers, please.
Most of scripture was written by Jews, for Jews and about Jews. The Jews to whom it was addressed understood it in the context of Jewish history and their literary traditions like haggadic midrash. They knew that much of it was not to be understood literally but rather allegorically. However, within a century of the death of Jesus the early Christian church had already ceased to be a movement within Judaism and had become Gentile and largely Greek speaking. In this transition Christians lost the ability to read scripture "with Jewish eyes". They began to read scripture as literal --- a great mistake. Some call this the "Gentile Heresy". It continues thus to this present day throughout Christianity in all but a few circles.
The Catholic Church fought against and defeated gnostic heresies.
Here's evidence from Ignatius writing in about 105 AD. Ignatius was a disciple of John and he is addressing the errors of the gnostics here:
"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."
"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.
Here are a few:
1 Cor 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes. - St. Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 107 AD
The Didache:
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
Cyprian:
If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ (Letters 63:14 [A.D 253]).
Because by the eighth century the Roman Catholic church became too political. Because they seemed to lose spiritual practice of healings, love feasts, prophecy and tongues.
There was no longer evidence of the Holy Spirit in their works. So young ones had to learn that the eucharist was blessed and that the Holy Spirit moves people into good works. There were no longer signs and wonders, secret thoughts revealed.
As time went by, the laying on of hands in apostolic succession became a ritual without impartation. The Fathers had true teaching and less and less gifting. They made elaborate allegories of Bible passages. The Russian church, the Roman church and the Greek church all discerned a different seven names of the seven archangels.
The teacher who advocated pre-conception existence was defeated in debate rather than proven wrong. The love in the fathers and monks seemed to become cool. And anathematization became a tool. And this tool was taken to the point of pope killing heretic, brother killing brother.
The true believers were so persecuted that the succession was strained.
Here are a few:
1 Cor 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes. - St. Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 107 AD
The Didache:
"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
Cyprian:
If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ (Letters 63:14 [A.D 253]).
Really, you are taking John Shelby Spong seriously.As one of Jewish background I don't take him seriously.
I'm amazed that anyone takes him seriously regardless of their background.
As a Christian who takes the bible seriously but not literally, I regard John Spong as a prophetic voice in the world today. But prophets are seldom recognized or appreciated.
What are your primary sources for this?
In a word, the early fathers began to err: "quickly."Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true? And also perhaps, grow cold?
I know the apostolic succession is heavily important, John the apostle's disciple Polycarp for example, a great passing on of the baton. If Polycarp went wrong, John failed as a father. Paul and Peter and all the apostles made converts and had inner circles. But over time, decade after decade, when did they lose speed?
By the eighth century the Roman church had become political. And they may have needed a revival of the healings and prophecies mentioned going into the fifth century?
By the fifth century end, the fathers had addressed each possible kind of heresy. I think last to go was modalism.
I think the concept of an anthropomorphic God was rubbished not counter explained, true? And pre-conception existence? I am interested in others' views?
Sadly, Christians have been condemning each other for as long as there have been Christians.
I think it was as soon as the Apostles were gone,Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true?
I think it was as soon as the Apostles were gone,
as Paul warned.
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
As a Christian who takes the bible seriously but not literally, I regard John Spong as a prophetic voice in the world today. But prophets are seldom recognized or appreciated.
I think it was as soon as the Apostles were gone,
as Paul warned.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?