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When did the early fathers begin to go askew?

True Science

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The offering of the Eucharist is a participation in the eternal, ever present, sacrifice of Jesus. We enter in to his sacrifice.

Yeah, I have no problem with this in a ritualistic typological sense and maybe even if there is some empowerment that God gives us through this. Surely it is a commandment. BUT, truly participating in the sacrifice of Jesus is to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to the Lord, not only doing an ordained ritual. We must deny ourselves daily and pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ daily by walking as he walked in order to participate in the truly in Christ's sacrifice.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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What makes you think that they did?
Because by the eighth century the Roman Catholic church became too political. Because they seemed to lose spiritual practice of healings, love feasts, prophecy and tongues.

There was no longer evidence of the Holy Spirit in their works. So young ones had to learn that the eucharist was blessed and that the Holy Spirit moves people into good works. There were no longer signs and wonders, secret thoughts revealed.

As time went by, the laying on of hands in apostolic succession became a ritual without impartation. The Fathers had true teaching and less and less gifting. They made elaborate allegories of Bible passages. The Russian church, the Roman church and the Greek church all discerned a different seven names of the seven archangels.

The teacher who advocated pre-conception existence was defeated in debate rather than proven wrong. The love in the fathers and monks seemed to become cool. And anathematization became a tool. And this tool was taken to the point of pope killing heretic, brother killing brother.

The true believers were so persecuted that the succession was strained.
 
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tz620q

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What you have said has a lot of merit and is promoted in Catholicism as well. We are called to unite ourselves through the Eucharist to the original sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Ritual without intent is meaningless; but what is our intent when we do this. It seems that Paul was trying to address this very concern in 1 Corinthians. The Corinthians were eating the Eucharist as just another meal and he correctly pointed out that it has much deeper spiritual significance.

You seem to advocate a "Real Presence" in the Eucharist, albeit a spiritual one only. Catholics would agree that there is a real spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist. So it is easy to find Early Church Fathers that talk about this spiritual presence; but to leave it there you have to ignore or refute their statements that only make sense if there is an actual physical presence as well.

So this thread does not make logical sense except when you start from the paradigm that the early church went apostate and then was somehow recovered later through the Reformation. This recovery has taken on many varying beliefs, that are neither coherent with the Early Church Fathers or with other movements within the Reformation. So where is the solid foundation of truth to even frame an argument to prove this theory about the ECF's?
 
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Cappadocious

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Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true? And also perhaps, grow cold?
April 9, 1906
 
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NonTheologian

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Keep in mind that the Roman church was never "the Church". The early Church comprised the Sees of Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria. As you correctly point out, I think, the Roman church did become heavily politicized (under Charlemagne). By the 5th century, the western Roman empire had largely fallen to the western "barbarians", but the eastern empire - which embraced the four remaining Sees - was intact and remained intact through the 15th century.

I would suggest that we consider the hypothesis that the true Church Fathers never did go astray, but rather that a schism developed in which part of the original Church went astray. Orthodox Christians would argue that the Roman Church was the one that went into schism, whereas Roman Catholics would argue that the Orthodox went into schism.
 
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tz620q

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Actually after looking at the history of the schism, I would say both sides were at blame, but the history spans nearly a thousand years and is not a straight line to schism. The odd thing is that today we are entrenched in theological debates, when at that time the main factors were linguistic and geopolitical.
 
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NonTheologian

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People tend to look at the schism of 1054 as if it were some discrete event and one that dealt entirely with ecclesiastical authority. Actually, the schism that developed between East and West is distinctly theological and began to appear some 600 years earlier in the dispute between East and West over the relationship between free will and grace - a dispute that was precipitated by Augustine's correct but perhaps overly enthusiastic refutation of Pelagius. The end result was a radically different view of the nature of sin and salvation held by the See of Rome on the one hand, and the eastern Sees (now comprising the Orthodox Church) on the other. Protestantism inherited its basic soteriology from the Roman Catholic Church, rather than from the Eastern Church.
 
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Erose

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Bull hockey
 
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NonTheologian

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Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true? And also perhaps, grow cold?

It seems that you are presuming that the Church Fathers did, in fact, err and miss the right and true, as you put it. If this were the case, then those who erred and missed could not, accordingly, be considered Church Fathers, since it is inconceivable that the Church, as the Body of Christ and the pilar and foundation of truth could tolerate untruth, would you agree? If so, then that would mean that the gates of hell did, in fact, at one point prevail.

Another perspective that you might explore is that the Church has continuously maintained truth since its founding. This does not necessarily require a belief in the Roman Catholic Church or any other specific church of Apostolic succession; merely the belief that such a Church of Apostolic succession does, in fact, exist.


I would answer "never". However I, as an Orthodox Christian, would maintain that you will find the valid succession in the Eastern Orthodox Church; a Roman Catholic would argue that you would find it in the Roman Catholic Church; etc.

By the eighth century the Roman church had become political. And they may have needed a revival of the healings and prophecies mentioned going into the fifth century?

I believe that your observation about the Roman church becoming political in the eight century (I would say 9th, with Charlemagne), is somewhat accurate, however politicism was not a plague that affected only the Roman Church. After Constantine legalized Christianity and adopted it as the official Church of the Empire, politics infused much of the ecclesiastical structure of the Church. Many of the early Church canons were actually "nomocanons" - rules to be followed not only by the Church, but by the entire Empire. This in itself, however, does not imply that the entire Church was corrupted. There has always been a faithful core which maintained what was true, and contributed to the eventual correction of errors by parts of the Church. I would argue that the greatest strength of the first millennium Church was its consistency in five independent Sees (Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria), which formed a sort of system of checks and balances. This system was weakened when Rome and the eastern Sees broke from each other in the 11th century. Again, we may argue amongst ourselves about what constitutes or constituted the faithful core, and which parts were/are in heresy and/or schism.

By the fifth century end, the fathers had addressed each possible kind of heresy. I think last to go was modalism.

The last great heresy addressed by the first millennial Church was iconoclasm. It was dealt with by the Seventh Ecumenical Council in 787 (i.e. the eighth century) in Nicea, which coincidentally was the Council that definitively established the canon of the New Testament for the entire Church (it had only been established in local councils until then).

Heresy is the predominant form of Christianity today, if one holds that false theology constitutes heresy. I am not making this statement based on my being an Orthodox Christian, but rather by applying certain logic. There are hundreds, if not, thousands of Christian groups today - usually claiming to be "churches" - which hold conflicting beliefs. Even if one apply the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed as a sort of "least common denominator" to proof-test beliefs (as does CF), there is broad disagreement over how it should be interpreted. In some cases it has been modified (e.g. as is the case with the Roman Catholic Church). True and false doctrine cannot coexist within the true Church. Logically, all or all but a handful (or maybe just one) of the Christian groups existing today exist outside the Church.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I want to see from "Greek, platonic and gnostic philosophical ideas" primary source quotes to prove that. Please, quote first a Church Father, then the source of influence from primary sources only.

No Second sources like Alexander Hislop(Two Babylons) which has been refuted by Ralph Woodrow in The Babylon Connection?!!!
 
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JackRT

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Most of scripture was written by Jews, for Jews and about Jews. The Jews to whom it was addressed understood it in the context of Jewish history and their literary traditions like haggadic midrash. They knew that much of it was not to be understood literally but rather allegorically. However, within a century of the death of Jesus the early Christian church had already ceased to be a movement within Judaism and had become Gentile and largely Greek speaking. In this transition Christians lost the ability to read scripture "with Jewish eyes". They began to read scripture as literal --- a great mistake. Some call this the "Gentile Heresy". It continues thus to this present day throughout Christianity in all but a few circles.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Early Settlement in Rome.

Capital in ancient times of the Roman republic and empire; in modern times, of the papal dominions and of the kingdom of Italy. Jews have lived in Rome for over 2,000 years, longer than in any other European city.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12816-rome

Romans 16:7New International Version (NIV)
7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Prove it with primary sources only. No secondary or third hearsay sources.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Origen is the only one I know who could fit your description.

Prove it with primary sources only. No secondary or third hearsay sources.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Daniel Marsh

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That approach is a word study fallacy. Wikipedia is a poor source of theological information. Prove it with primary sources only. No secondary or third hearsay sources.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I am not Catholic, but I believe in giving the other sides best arguments for refutation.


The Fathers:

The Didache (C. 90 - 150 A.D.):

"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; But first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one...For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord and my name is the wonder of nations’ (Malachias 1, 11,...)."

St. Clement of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians (C. 98 A.D.):

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release."

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians (C. 110 A.D.):

"Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans (C. 110 A.D.):

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes."

St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, C. 66 (C. 155 A.D.):

"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus...The Apostles, in the Memoirs which they produced, which are called Gospels, have thus passed on that which was enjoined upon them: that Jesus took bread and, having given thanks, said, ‘Do this in remembrance of Me; this is My Body.’ And in like manner, taking the cup, and having given thanks, He said, ‘This is My Blood.’ And He imparted this to them only."

St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (C. 180 A.D.):

"If the body be not saved, in fact, neither did the Lord redeem us with His Blood; and neither is the cup of the Eucharist the partaking of His Blood nor is the Bread which we break the partaking of His Body."

St. Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized (370 A.D.):

"Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so as long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine - and thus is His Body confected."

St. Augustine of Hippo, Explanation of the Psalms (C. 400 A.D.):

"‘And he was carried in his own hands.’ But, brethren, how is it possible for a man to do this? Who can understand it? Who is it that is carried in his own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of another; but no one can be carried in his own hands. How this should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own Body, He said:‘This is My Body’ for He carried that Body in His hands."
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I don't remember any Catholic source saying Jesus is re-crucified at every Eucharist.
 
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