When did the early fathers begin to go askew?

mac777

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Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true? And also perhaps, grow cold?
I know the apostolic succession is heavily important, John the apostle's disciple Polycarp for example, a great passing on of the baton. If Polycarp went wrong, John failed as a father. Paul and Peter and all the apostles made converts and had inner circles. But over time, decade after decade, when did they lose speed?

By the eighth century the Roman church had become political. And they may have needed a revival of the healings and prophecies mentioned going into the fifth century?

By the fifth century end, the fathers had addressed each possible kind of heresy. I think last to go was modalism.

I think the concept of an anthropomorphic God was rubbished not counter explained, true? And pre-conception existence? I am interested in others' views?

In the 2nd century the varied churchs began to deny the gifts of the holy ghost, excommunicate those that exercised said gifts and destroy their books.
There are records of Church courts were such men were excommunicated for speaking in tongues and prophesing.
Early christian historians spoke of these Charismatic groups of Christians in the churches of the 2nd century that were cast out and their books destroyed, they said these men and women were fervent in their testimonies of Jesus, when ever there was roman persecution of the church these charismatic christians were fierce and bold, ready to die for their saviour and were always zealous in promoting the gospel amongst te pagans, however the church leaders felt their Authority was threatened by men and women prophesing and speaking in tongues, healing the sick, etc, having visions in church meetings so decided to get rid of them...
By the fourth century humble christian fathers lamented that in their day that it was a rare thing to see any christian displaying the gifts of the spirit and by the fifth century others lamented their demise.
Rejecting the gifts of the holy ghost is severing the link to heaven, hence the church began to stumble in those ancient times.
 
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mac777

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Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true? And also perhaps, grow cold?
I know the apostolic succession is heavily important, John the apostle's disciple Polycarp for example, a great passing on of the baton. If Polycarp went wrong, John failed as a father. Paul and Peter and all the apostles made converts and had inner circles. But over time, decade after decade, when did they lose speed?

By the eighth century the Roman church had become political. And they may have needed a revival of the healings and prophecies mentioned going into the fifth century?

By the fifth century end, the fathers had addressed each possible kind of heresy. I think last to go was modalism.

I think the concept of an anthropomorphic God was rubbished not counter explained, true? And pre-conception existence? I am interested in others' views?

In the 2nd century the varied churchs began to deny the gifts of the holy ghost, excommunicate those that exercised said gifts and destroy their books.
There are records of Church courts were such men were excommunicated for speaking in tongues and prophesing.
Early christian historians spoke of these Charismatic groups of Christians in the churches of the 2nd century that were cast out and their books destroyed, they said these men and women were fervent in their testimonies of Jesus, when ever there was roman persecution of the church these charismstic christians were fierce and bold, ready to die for their saviour and were always zealous in promoting the gospel amongst te pagans, however the church leaders felt their Authority was threatened by men and women prophesing and speaking in tongues, healing the sick, etc, having visions in church meetings so decided to get rid of them...
By the fourth century humble christian fathers lamented that in their day that it was a rare thing to see any christian displaying the gifts of the spirit and by the fifth century others lamented their demise.
Rejecting the gifts of the holy ghost is severing the link to heaven, hence the church began to stumble in those ancient times.
 
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prodromos

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In the 2nd century the varied churchs began to deny the gifts of the holy ghost, excommunicate those that exercised said gifts and destroy their books.
There are records of Church courts were such men were excommunicated for speaking in tongues and prophesing.
Early christian historians spoke of these Charismatic groups of Christians in the churches of the 2nd century that were cast out and their books destroyed, they said these men and women were fervent in their testimonies of Jesus, when ever there was roman persecution of the church these charismatic christians were fierce and bold, ready to die for their saviour and were always zealous in promoting the gospel amongst te pagans, however the church leaders felt their Authority was threatened by men and women prophesing and speaking in tongues, healing the sick, etc, having visions in church meetings so decided to get rid of them...
By the fourth century humble christian fathers lamented that in their day that it was a rare thing to see any christian displaying the gifts of the spirit and by the fifth century others lamented their demise.
Rejecting the gifts of the holy ghost is severing the link to heaven, hence the church began to stumble in those ancient times.
Please post links to your source. I've seen no evidence of what you claim above.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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In the 2nd century the varied churchs began to deny the gifts of the holy ghost, excommunicate those that exercised said gifts and destroy their books.
There are records of Church courts were such men were excommunicated for speaking in tongues and prophesing.
Early christian historians spoke of these Charismatic groups of Christians in the churches of the 2nd century that were cast out and their books destroyed, they said these men and women were fervent in their testimonies of Jesus, when ever there was roman persecution of the church these charismstic christians were fierce and bold, ready to die for their saviour and were always zealous in promoting the gospel amongst te pagans, however the church leaders felt their Authority was threatened by men and women prophesing and speaking in tongues, healing the sick, etc, having visions in church meetings so decided to get rid of them...
By the fourth century humble christian fathers lamented that in their day that it was a rare thing to see any christian displaying the gifts of the spirit and by the fifth century others lamented their demise.
Rejecting the gifts of the holy ghost is severing the link to heaven, hence the church began to stumble in those ancient times.


Primary sources please. And by primary, I mean primary.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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In the 2nd century the varied churchs began to deny the gifts of the holy ghost, excommunicate those that exercised said gifts and destroy their books.
There are records of Church courts were such men were excommunicated for speaking in tongues and prophesing.
Early christian historians spoke of these Charismatic groups of Christians in the churches of the 2nd century that were cast out and their books destroyed, they said these men and women were fervent in their testimonies of Jesus, when ever there was roman persecution of the church these charismatic christians were fierce and bold, ready to die for their saviour and were always zealous in promoting the gospel amongst te pagans, however the church leaders felt their Authority was threatened by men and women prophesing and speaking in tongues, healing the sick, etc, having visions in church meetings so decided to get rid of them...
By the fourth century humble christian fathers lamented that in their day that it was a rare thing to see any christian displaying the gifts of the spirit and by the fifth century others lamented their demise.
Rejecting the gifts of the holy ghost is severing the link to heaven, hence the church began to stumble in those ancient times.

2 Timothy 4:19-21
Easy-to-Read Version

Final Greetings
19 Give my greetings to Priscilla and Aquila and to the family of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus stayed in Corinth. And I left Trophimus in Miletus—he was sick. 21 Try as hard as you can to come to me before winter.

Greetings to you from Eubulus, Pudens, Linus, Claudia, and all the brothers and sisters here.


It appears the gifts were already dying out between 90 CE to 140 AD
 
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Daniel Marsh

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JUSTIN MARTYR (100-165)
In Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho, he makes it abundantly clear that the prophetical gifts of the Jews had been transferred to the Christians. He starts chapter 82 of his apologetic book declaring, “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.”

...

Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years” (2:32:4).

...

5:6:1 wherein he explains, “For this reason does the apostle declare, “We speak wisdom among them that are perfect”, terming those who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used himself also to speak. In like manner we do hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual”, they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual.”

...

Against Marcion is recorded in 5:8. Here Tertullian does much the same as Irenaeus in laying a hold of the spiritual gifts to show that his Church was really the true Church of Christ.


The gifts of the Spirit never left the early church

Irenaeus - Wikipedia
Tertullian - Wikipedia
https://www.tms.edu/m/msj14.2.pdf

Clement of Alexandria (d. 215 a.d.; The Instructor, iv.21, ANF, 2:434) spoke explicitly of the operation in his day of those spiritual gifts listed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:7-10.

Spiritual Gifts in Church History (3)

end of quotes
 
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mac777

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I would say unto those that seek out the truth of my words, go before the Lord Jesus and sincerely and humbly seek from Him concerning these things and He will manifest the truth of such things unto you. Then do as I done and sought out the best books and the writings of the early Christian fathers whom many truly lamented of the demise of the Gifts of the Holy ghost.
Any honest man with common sense apon reading the pagan traditions that came into the early church in abundance in those days shows clearly that they were being led by uninspired men who put aside many of the glorious truths of the Bible and replaced them with the wisdom of men and devils.
Leaving the church having a form of Godlyness, but denieing the power there of.
The Christian shall always need the Gifts of the holy ghost in this earthly sphere and shall do so untill the Lord Jesus returns and perfection then dawns apon this earth.
Any inspired man thru out the early days, yes even unto our day that arose seeking to restore those ancient gospel truths has been reviled, persecuted and in many instances been put to death by this Apostate church that proffesses the name of Jesus, hence in revelation we see the harlot whom is drunk on the blood of the Saints.
And whom is that harlot it is the Church of the fourth/fifth century AD that was unfaithfull unto Jesus, whom traded in His teachings for that of the world such was her desire for earthly power and the praise of men.
Never think that it is the Mother church alone, this includes all her daughters, ie the churches and sects that left her bosom, for they all have taken away out from the Mother church her many pagan teachings and practices and they stumble even the most sincere amongst them for their paganised christian brethren in those early centuries AD rejected the power of God, rejected the gifts of the Holy Ghost which would of guided them into all truth.
Councils like Nicea led by a Roman Emporer, led to the deepening decline of the church, those Bishops that resisted the introduction of pagan teachings and the uninspired teaching of men were cast out of the church, some were put to death, great libraries of scriptures were destroyed, many Bishops were bribed, threatened to toe the new creeds and doctrines.
Look thru out the centuries after the fifth century AD, were are the prophets, those men and woman speaking in tongues, healing the sick, casting out devils, having visions, dreams and prophecy to guide and bless the church, all gone and in its place was a false pagan creed of the churches , that theres no more scripture, no more prophecy, the gifts of the holy ghost are done away with for there was no more need for them after the early apostles finished their work and much more unscriptural nonsense, all inspired by the evil one to prevent Revelation and guidance from Heavan.
Arise Christians , shake off the shackles that fetter you and keep you from the blessings of Jesus, yes the shackles of false creeds and vain traditions that deny the power of God and reject the gifts of the spirit, that reject that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
For we have not a changable God, what He done anciently He will do today and tomorow, were ever He finds faith, there He is in great power and glory, to bring light, knowlegde, comfort and healing and eternal life.
So my Christian brethren let us not be prisoners to the churches of men, let us seek out the Jesus of the Gospels...
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I would say unto those that seek out the truth of my words, go before the Lord Jesus and sincerely and humbly seek from Him concerning these things and He will manifest the truth of such things unto you. Then do as I done and sought out the best books and the writings of the early Christian fathers whom many truly lamented of the demise of the Gifts of the Holy ghost.
Any honest man with common sense apon reading the pagan traditions that came into the early church in abundance in those days shows clearly that they were being led by uninspired men who put aside many of the glorious truths of the Bible and replaced them with the wisdom of men and devils.
Leaving the church having a form of Godlyness, but denieing the power there of.
The Christian shall always need the Gifts of the holy ghost in this earthly sphere and shall do so untill the Lord Jesus returns and perfection then dawns apon this earth.
Any inspired man thru out the early days, yes even unto our day that arose seeking to restore those ancient gospel truths has been reviled, persecuted and in many instances been put to death by this Apostate church that proffesses the name of Jesus, hence in revelation we see the harlot whom is drunk on the blood of the Saints.
And whom is that harlot it is the Church of the fourth/fifth century AD that was unfaithfull unto Jesus, whom traded in His teachings for that of the world such was her desire for earthly power and the praise of men.
Never think that it is the Mother church alone, this includes all her daughters, ie the churches and sects that left her bosom, for they all have taken away out from the Mother church her many pagan teachings and practices and they stumble even the most sincere amongst them for their paganised christian brethren in those early centuries AD rejected the power of God, rejected the gifts of the Holy Ghost which would of guided them into all truth.
Councils like Nicea led by a Roman Emporer, led to the deepening decline of the church, those Bishops that resisted the introduction of pagan teachings and the uninspired teaching of men were cast out of the church, some were put to death, great libraries of scriptures were destroyed, many Bishops were bribed, threatened to toe the new creeds and doctrines.
Look thru out the centuries after the fifth century AD, were are the prophets, those men and woman speaking in tongues, healing the sick, casting out devils, having visions, dreams and prophecy to guide and bless the church, all gone and in its place was a false pagan creed of the churches , that theres no more scripture, no more prophecy, the gifts of the holy ghost are done away with for there was no more need for them after the early apostles finished their work and much more unscriptural nonsense, all inspired by the evil one to prevent Revelation and guidance from Heavan.
Arise Christians , shake off the shackles that fetter you and keep you from the blessings of Jesus, yes the shackles of false creeds and vain traditions that deny the power of God and reject the gifts of the spirit, that reject that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
For we have not a changable God, what He done anciently He will do today and tomorow, were ever He finds faith, there He is in great power and glory, to bring light, knowlegde, comfort and healing and eternal life.
So my Christian brethren let us not be prisoners to the churches of men, let us seek out the Jesus of the Gospels...

What great libraries of scripture were destroyed? by whom and when? What was introduced into the Church in the fourth century that was fundamentally pagan in origin? Who were the prophets in the fifth century?
 
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mac777

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What great libraries of scripture were destroyed? by whom and when? What was introduced into the Church in the fourth century that was fundamentally pagan in origin? Who were the prophets in the fifth century?

Go read the works of the early christian leaders, they speak of the peoples they cast out of their midst and of the books they destroyed of said peoples, go read of Emporers whom had the churchs that opposed said councils decrees libraries destroyed, many that were classed as heretics were not heretics at all, yet their books, etc were destroyed, leaving us only with the statements of those that cast them out of the paganised churches of that time.
Would you follow Bishops and Church leaders that taught you to worship icons, statues, that it was good to pray to a virgin, that had men beat to death for having a different outlook to theirs, had their noses cut off, their faces tied to a donkeys backside and led thru the streets to humiliate them in front of the masses. its obvious such Bishops and religious leaders were followers not of Jesus but of the evil one, yet today most christian venerate these early christian fathers that taught such and happily accept their creeds concerning God/Christ as laid down in their councils.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Go read the works of the early christian leaders, they speak of the peoples they cast out of their midst and of the books they destroyed of said peoples, go read of Emporers whom had the churchs that opposed said councils decrees libraries destroyed, many that were classed as heretics were not heretics at all, yet their books, etc were destroyed, leaving us only with the statements of those that cast them out of the paganised churches of that time.
Would you follow Bishops and Church leaders that taught you to worship icons, statues, that it was good to pray to a virgin, that had men beat to death for having a different outlook to theirs, had their noses cut off, their faces tied to a donkeys backside and led thru the streets to humiliate them in front of the masses. its obvious such Bishops and religious leaders were followers not of Jesus but of the evil one, yet today most christian venerate these early christian fathers that taught such and happily accept their creeds concerning God/Christ as laid down in their councils.

I have read them. Your accusations are vague and based on nothing I've read. For instance. You suggest that in the second century the Church sought out books to burn when I don't see evidence of a systemic attempt to actually do such a thing. I would also question the capacity of the Church, given it's minority status and that it had little political power to actually do book burnings on a level that mattered. The reason why heretical texts didn't survive, unlike the gospels (if you believe in them) is because they weren't read enough or believed enough in order for anyone to care about their preservation. There are other more Orthodox texts as well that didn't survive, like Papias' Expositions of the Sayings of the Lord. I would love if that text had survived.

Since I'm an orthodox Christian and do venerate Icons, I would follow those bishops. I'm not an Iconoclast and never probably will be.

I'm curious if you believe in the bible we have today or do you prefer more esoteric and gnostic form of Christianity? Or are you some sort of British Israeli? Just going by the flag you use as your avatar.
 
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mac777

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I have read them. Your accusations are vague and based on nothing I've read. For instance. You suggest that in the second century the Church sought out books to burn when I don't see evidence of a systemic attempt to actually do such a thing. I would also question the capacity of the Church, given it's minority status and that it had little political power to actually do book burnings on a level that mattered. The reason why heretical texts didn't survive, unlike the gospels (do you believe in them) is because they weren't read enough or believed enough in order for anyone to care about their preservation. There are other more Orthodox texts as well that didn't survive, like Papias' Expositions of the Sayings of the Lord.

Since I'm an orthodox Christian and do venerate Icons, I would follow those bishops. I'm not an Iconoclast and never probably will be.

I'm curious if you believe in the bible we have today or do you prefer more esoteric and gnostic form of Christianity? Or are you some sort of British Israeli? Just going by the flag you use as your avatar.

Yes believe in the teachings of the Bible, for they testify brightly through out to Jesus of Nazerath.Regards doctrine I believe that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
I cant believe in a changeable God, that walked among men in ancient times,giving comfort, healings, advice and revelation, yet today according to many religious men he does not speak to men anymore, he only does so thru a book.
No man or body of men have the right to tell Jesus that he cannot give men direct revelation today, heal their infirmities, give them visions and dreams, such men cannot limit the Saviour to only speak thru a Book or that they will do the speaking for Him, tell Him and men what to do and to believe.
Such men and bodies of men have set themselves up apon the throne of God and have set God aside.
 
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prodromos

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No man or body of men have the right to tell Jesus that he cannot give men direct revelation today, heal their infirmities, give them visions and dreams
What are you talking about? We have this in abundance in the Orthodox Church.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Yes believe in the teachings of the Bible, for they testify brightly through out to Jesus of Nazerath.Regards doctrine I believe that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
I cant believe in a changeable God, that walked among men in ancient times,giving comfort, healings, advice and revelation, yet today according to many religious men he does not speak to men anymore, he only does so thru a book.
No man or body of men have the right to tell Jesus that he cannot give men direct revelation today, heal their infirmities, give them visions and dreams, such men cannot limit the Saviour to only speak thru a Book or that they will do the speaking for Him, tell Him and men what to do and to believe.
Such men and bodies of men have set themselves up apon the throne of God and have set God aside.

You want me to believe the teachings of a bible put together and preserved by a Church you believe to be corrupt and destroyers of God's word? Or do you want me to believe that the Church destroyed the Godly writings and men started inventing their own beliefs or let paganism creep into the Church? Which is it?
 
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jamiec

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Good day, I am interested in knowing about when the early church fathers, in apostolic succession, began to err, to miss the right and true? And also perhaps, grow cold?
I know the apostolic succession is heavily important, John the apostle's disciple Polycarp for example, a great passing on of the baton. If Polycarp went wrong, John failed as a father. Paul and Peter and all the apostles made converts and had inner circles. But over time, decade after decade, when did they lose speed?

By the eighth century the Roman church had become political. And they may have needed a revival of the healings and prophecies mentioned going into the fifth century?

By the fifth century end, the fathers had addressed each possible kind of heresy. I think last to go was modalism.

I think the concept of an anthropomorphic God was rubbished not counter explained, true? And pre-conception existence? I am interested in others' views?
The Fathers as a group didn’t go astray Patristic Christianity is Christianity.
 
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jamiec

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You want me to believe the teachings of a bible put together and preserved by a Church you believe to be corrupt and destroyers of God's word? Or do you want me to believe that the Church destroyed the Godly writings and men started inventing their own beliefs or let paganism creep into the Church? Which is it?
Exactly - well said. I would love to see that dilemma faced.
 
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jamiec

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So when you get sprinkled by the Blood of Christ. Does his blood from Calvary literally appear and fall on you so that you have his blood on you? Like seriously, use your common sense.

There is also no doubt that the early Assembly saw the Eucharist in a sacrificial sense, and I agree with them to the point, like what the Didache says. But how far the RCC takes this to me clearly is going against what Hebrews says about Christ offering himself once and not needing to be offered over an dover again.
So what do you think the CC believes on these matters ?
 
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jamiec

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Jamie,

Which individual Fathers do you consider went astray? What were their errors?

Oz
I meant two things:

1) Some of them - like Tertullian or Origen - were (it seems) more wrong on certain issues than the others.

This is (of course) a very hard matter to judge. OTOH, those Fathers are still worthy of respect, and still well worth reading & studying; Origen is an excellent instance of this. St Cyprian’s admiration for Tertullian (who became a Montanist) is well known.

One can be wide of the mark on certain issues and still be of great value and be a standard of accuracy in others. I think this is a matter of degree. For instance, Saint Augustine is (deservedly) of great authority in the Western Church; even in those Churches that do not accept his teaching on double predestination.

(2) Taken as a group, throughout the whole period from about 70 AD to about 750 AD, the Fathers, whatever their individual errors of whatever kind, are rightly honoured and valued as witnesses to orthodox Christian doctrine and piety.

It is an act of piety to recognise their service to Christendom. Just as God-breathed Scripture can be useful in the Church without being totally inerrant, so also can they. The final judge (under God) of their fidelity to the Faith to which they witnessed, is not any one of their number nor them as a body, but the Church Universal of which they were members.

One can acknowledge their value for theology, doctrine, and Christian practice, without supposing that there is nothing more to be learnt in the interpretation of the Bible than they have supplied. One can regret the fondness of many of them for allegorisation (as in St Augustine of Hippo, St Gregory the Great, or Origen) while accepting their doctrinal conclusions. And they remain of value, even though most of the Western Fathers had no Greek or Hebrew, & most of the Easterners, no Hebrew.

The Reformers had some advantages the Fathers lacked; & their successors in 1950 knew much more about the Biblical world than either. All have their limitations - and so do expositors and scholars now, & of any time.

That the Fathers and their mediaeval and later successors, including ourselves, had & have all sorts of limitations, is simply a fact. It is not in any way to depreciate them, or their successors.
 
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Yes believe in the teachings of the Bible, for they testify brightly through out to Jesus of Nazerath.Regards doctrine I believe that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
I cant believe in a changeable God, that walked among men in ancient times,giving comfort, healings, advice and revelation, yet today according to many religious men he does not speak to men anymore, he only does so thru a book.
No man or body of men have the right to tell Jesus that he cannot give men direct revelation today, heal their infirmities, give them visions and dreams, such men cannot limit the Saviour to only speak thru a Book or that they will do the speaking for Him, tell Him and men what to do and to believe.
Such men and bodies of men have set themselves up apon the throne of God and have set God aside.
At least in Catholicism (leaving the non-Chalcedonian Churches, and the Orthodox, out of account, since I can speak for none of those):

1. God is not limited to Holy Scripture. It is supreme, but inseparable from Sacred Tradition.

One of the reasons the Church is said to be Apostolic is, that we believe that the Holy Spirit Who was poured out upon the Apostles makes the Apostolic fellowship with & experience of Christ, and His Teaching and Works, a permanent reality in the Church. So although these things took place in the historical past, and are in that sense “over and done”, they are also, for the Church’s life in Christ (a supernatural, not an historical, reality) very much alive, and not dead. They are not repeated: that, is both impossible and needless.

2. The Holy Spirit of God, although He reveals no new public revelation, assists the Church by:

a. opening up the Bible and its meaning;

b. converting & enlightening & renewing the members of Christ (conversion is both a momentary act, and a life-long process, for individual & Church alike);

c. certifying, as from God, genuine, & fruitful, the private revelations given to some members of the Church.

The words of Joel were (as St Peter noted at Pentecost in Acts 2) fulfilled at Pentecost - and that Unique Pentecostal fulfilment continues today. Sins are still forgiven, the Gospel is still preached, the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit are still given & still manifested, the Kingship of Christ over all hearts & over all societies, peoples, tribes, nations & tongues is still exercised.

- to name just a few ways in which the Spirit of God is active in the Church,

And if the Holy Spirit produces the fruits of Christ in the Church, that is not, & can never be, a ground for human boasting. It is a reason for thankfulness to God.
 
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