When did the church start?

IamAdopted · Jun 3, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
that's what I was trying to say.

The Church is none other than the body of Christ.. So therefore It is Christ and Him crucified and risen that begat the Chruch . This is why Christ is the Head of His church..

Benedicta00 · Jun 3, 2007

Well if that is what you believe... roll with it.

I'ma roll with this though...

The Eschatological Church (the one painted in Revelation) started before the creation of the World

The Visible Church (the one made one by the Eucharist) started at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit arrived one it

The Personal Church (you are the temple of the Holy Spirit) started at your baptism

It lines up with scripture.

Try to avoid the either/ or trap if you can.

IamAdopted · Jun 3, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
Well if that is what you believe... roll with it.

I'ma roll with this though...

It lines up with scripture.

Try to avoid the either/ or trap if you can.

Which scripture are you speaking of in Revelation? This would be a help..There is only one chruch Bene.. Only One.. with only one head.. This is where your confusion comes in... There is only one body of Christ.. Not three..

a_ntv · Jun 3, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Which scripture are you speaking of in Revelation? This would be a help..There is only one chruch Bene.. Only One.. with only one head.. This is where your confusion comes in... There is only one body of Christ.. Not three..

You are right, as Christ is One, the Church is One

No human words can describe it fully, because the Church itself is part of the Mystery of Christ.

I gave a standard division of the manifestations of the Church, ALL OF THEM "ALIVE MEMORIES" OF THE EVENT OF THE CROSS AND RISEN OF CHRIST, I was not describing three different Chrurches. It was only an approxiamtion

The Eschatological Church started before the creation of the World and it will last forever
We have a clear paint of it in Revelation 21
21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
21:10 And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,......
21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
The altar, the High Priest and the scrifice are the same: Christ
This church, if imitated too much, it becames the Church of the "already Saints"

The Visible Church started at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit arrived one it, and it will last till the return of Christ.
1Cor10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
The altar if the stone altar we find in the Church-buildings, the priests are the successors of the Apostoles, the sacrifice is the Blood and the Body of Christ (the Eucharist)
This church, if imitated too much, it becames the Church of the "bishops"

The Personal Church started at your baptism, and it will last till, in the heaven, you will be in Christ and Christ in you ( John 4:20)
Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your rational worship.
1Peter 2:5 and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own;
So here the temple is your heart, your body, the priest is yourself (priesthod of all believers), the sacrifices are you good deeds , your prayer, your crosses
This church, if imitated too much, it becames the Church of the "ascetic life"

A good christian life includes all these three churches, in a equal balance.

IamAdopted · Jun 3, 2007

The Eschatological Church started before the creation of the World and it will last forever
We have a clear paint of it in Revelation 21
21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
21:10 And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,......
21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
The altar, the High Priest and the scrifice are the same: Christ
This church, if imitated too much, it becames the Church of the "already Saints"

You will have to elaborate on this more as to what you are saying for this scripture you have posted.. I will wait for the response to this one before I ask on the other ones..

a_ntv · Jun 4, 2007

IamAdopted said:
You will have to elaborate on this more as to what you are saying for this scripture you have posted.. I will wait for the response to this one before I ask on the other ones..

The Escatological Church is the Church of the saints:

Rev 22:3-5 There shall no more be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall worship him; they shall see his face, and his name shall be on their foreheads.
(this quote explain why I call the Echatological Church the Church of saints)

That is not only a description of the future, but also of the present!
22:2 also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations
It is clear that the need of a healing places the description in the present times, because only now there is the need of a healing.

Rev 22:1 Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
And the river of live flowing from the throne is surely the WORD of GOD (see Ez 47:1 - a Ortohodox would say the Liturgy, a Protestan would say the Bible, a Catholic would say the Word of God): and there we can find the Body of Christ.
And the trees on each side of the river are the belivers, by which, trasfigured by Christ, the healing power of Christ (Zec 13:1) arrives to all the the others (nations).

The Eschatological Church is already present, even if not completly.
That is in the same way the death as been already defeated by Christ, but we still bodly die. (1Cor 15:54 Death is swallowed up in victory)

We are allowed to unit ourself, even if only partially, to the Eschatological Church by the Incarnation-Death-Risen of Christ.
This event is painted in the Revelation by the opening of the seventh seal, opened by the Lamb (Rev 8:1).

PS: the Ecclesiology (doctrine of the Church) is much more developed in Catholic Church (that has it in common with the Orthodox Church, due to the fact that the Ecclesiology was already developed in the 3 century), while the standard Protestant Ecclesiology is more simplified, and it is usually focused on the Echatological Church (see ad instance the OSAS/predestination), while the Visible Church is sometime too much developed in the CC (see the importance of sacraments), and the Personal Church is sometime too much developed in the EO (see the importance of the monks)

PPSS: the more clear contact point with the Eshatological Church is when, in almost all denomination services, we say something like:
And so with all the choirs of angels in heaven we proclaim Your glory and join in their unending hymn of praise:
Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might, heaven and earth are full of your glory.....

bevjane · Jun 14, 2007

IMHO the church began onthe day of Pentacost when the Holy Spirit came as promised and the apostles were given the gifts to carry on the gospel in order to add to the church.

mmetts · Jun 15, 2007

bevjane said:
IMHO the church began onthe day of Pentacost when the Holy Spirit came as promised and the apostles were given the gifts to carry on the gospel in order to add to the church.

That is safe tradition. The Revelations account of the church sounds accurate too.

mmetts · Jun 15, 2007

What are all these "gizmos" on each of my posts! Hahaha

mmetts · Jun 15, 2007

I think it is so moving to consider that Jesus (although being the Chief Cornerstone) never founded "a religious institution". (I am speaking as a man) He is the founder of the faith and Christ IS the Way, the Truth, and the Light. But his historical account is "air-tight" as I heard Chip Ingram state in a sermon. There are something like 5,000 1st century documents that are historical accounts of Christ. But the moving part comes in where his beloved disciples, through conviction of the truth that Christ was the Messiah, all would not deny him and forsook so much and followed him into death (most by awful and painful ways like crucifixion). Now, do I think these men would have done so if they had not witnessed the resurrected Christ? There is no way. Christ is authentic. Thank God for providing our hilasterion in his self-restraint.
Amen.

JacktheCatholic · Jun 15, 2007

mmetts said:
I think it is so moving to consider that Jesus (although being the Chief Cornerstone) never founded "a religious institution".

Then what was the house he was building?

mmetts said:
Christ IS the Way, the Truth, and the Light.

Amen!

mmetts · Jun 15, 2007

Then what was the house he was building?

What do you mean?

mmetts · Jun 15, 2007

Well he was founding the Church! Great, I'm in danger of sounding heretical...! My point was, to me, Christ had all authority from heaven to do as he wished, but instead of establishing his kingdom, he showed us something different... love. I just thought that with Christ gone (ascended) and the Holy Spirit present, or our helper, that it was convicted followers of Christ and that he was true who began spreading his gospel and founding churches (not Christ himself). Hmmm... it sounded better in my mind, but maybe the thought is heretical. Can someone help me out?

JacktheCatholic · Jun 15, 2007

mmetts said:
What do you mean?

I should have used "church" instead of "house". It is because of Jesus speaking about the house being built on the rock and the Old Testament connection that I used house. But suffice it to say "church" instead of "house".

My point was that Jesus said he is building his "church". So it is one church and it is visible (like the house).

I know I am confusing but that is only because so much of my thoughts I cannot put in writing for the length it would take so in my summarizing I leave out key pieces.

Kristos · Jun 15, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Taking this off of another thread I thought this would be a good discussion . When Moses led the Isrealites out of Egypt was this the beginning of the Church? Was those who Moses led out of Egypt mixed or were they Isrealites?

When God created the angels.

SaintPhotios · Jul 2, 2007

yeah, definitely Pentecost. There were many "types" of the Church and many events and things in Scripture that prefigures the Church. But they were merely imperfect forerunners to the one true Church.

CharlesTheMod · Jul 14, 2007

sub marker

E.C. · Jul 14, 2007

Seriously, I thought this thread was going to die and drown in the abyss of "dead threads".

Benedicta00 · Jul 14, 2007

It's an intriguing question.

The Church is the body of Christ... so it always existed becuase Christ always existed.

hisworkmanship · Jul 16, 2007

Israel and the Church are separate. The Church officially began on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples.

When did the church start?

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