when did life start and continue on the planet?

[lucaspa]

What is on the outside? If people say that the universe is existence. Then the universe must be infinite because if you travel off the edge you would be existing outside of the universe. I believe that the universe is finite. Its the only way to explain why it isn't ruled by chaos. Still, if it is finite, it is in something else. Until you reach an infinite.

There is no outside. Nor is the universe infinite. Remember, before Big Bang there was NOTHING. No matter, no energy, no time, no SPACE. Ever since space has been exanding, but it is clear that space cannot be infinite. However, difficult as it is to conceive, there is NOTHING "outside" of that space. So, if you travel in a straight line in the universe, you will eventually come back to your starting point. No edge.

 

[lucaspa]

I accept your note that is true too.

Life from a non-creationalist point of view of how it started is still largely unknown. Some may suggest an asteriod with life compounds entering Earth somehow created life. Whether or not it is scientifically unknown, and it would beg the question so far as we know - why only Earth?

Weboffin, go to the thread "Primordial Soup" and discuss abiogenesis there.

Now, we have no idea that life began only on earth. In our solar system, Earth and Mars are the only planets in the liquid water belt around the sun. That is, they are at the right distance from the sun for the temperatures are such for water to be liquid. A few years ago there was controversy over a Martian meteorite that had organic chemicals in it that could have been from life.

So, we have only two planets and one moon of Jupiter in the solar system where life can exist -- because life as we know it requires liquid water. But there are 100 million suns in our galaxy alone and millions of galaxies. It's far too early to say that life happened only on earth.

 

[lucaspa]

In my opinion, existence is an outside system in comparison to the universe. The universe exists, but existence does not exist. It is existence. Plus, when describing a void (before the beginning) there was not matter/energy/spacetime. If that is what the universe is, then existence is the word I'll continue to use.

God's name being "I Am", means alot on this subject. That is his sole attribute unlike what he has created. (Its also the hardest thing for people to believe.) I believe he actually concieved and created existence. He is over existence. If this is true, then I guess he actually does not exist. He just lives.

WOW! The universe isn't complicated enough so you invent these tortured semantics to make it even more complicated???

How can existence not exist? That "existence does not exist" is an oxymoron if there ever was one.

Don't Christians believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Those are "attributes". Now, it is true that Yahweh does not have a name. To me, it makes sense that a singular immortal being who created the universe would identify itself as "I am". What need does it have for a name? After all, names are for distinguishing similar entities (like people or cars) from each other. But a singular entity has no need to distinguish itself from anything else. It is the only one there is.

Now, Christians other than creationists do believe that God is not part of creation, but is separate from it. One of the major theological flaws of creationism and particularly ID is that they make God part of the universe.

 

[lucaspa]

we were just talking earlier about how matter came about in a vaccum. its infinite.

Where did you get infinite out of virtual particles?

 

[daydreamer]

I dont really know if this conversation is still going, but id just like to say my little bit.

In the Bible, God says, at the end, that he 'is the beginning and the end. The Alpha and the omega.'

time to God doesnt matter. A thousand years is the same as one day to Him. So when i think about evolution and how complex the world is and how many billions and billions of years it must have taken to make the galaxy, i just sit back and think...in Genesis God said He made the heavens and the earth in seven days. But you know what i think? I think He just said that to simplify creation for us. Think about - two thousand years ago, mankind could not have handled being told they were the size of a pinhead on top of say, ten football fields, or more. I believe that universe is SOOOOOO complex and i believe that God made it that way. So there's no real point trying to find out how old the universe is or where life came from, bcoz when u think about - why would God let us know that? What's the point of knowing that? I think, in the Christian faith, particularly on the subject of evolution and creation, you get to the point where you just have to sit back and say 'God did this for a reason. I dont know what that reason is, but if the answer is so impossible to find, it's obviously something we're not meant to know yet.'

Ok? Thats just my little bit...maybe you think im wrong...i dont know.

 

[lucaspa]

Long enough to create a universe, supposedly. Big Bang theory supposedly hangs on it.

I still don't know what exactly they are. Somehow matter just popped into existence as energy was drawn from the vaccum itself.

1. Big Bang does not depend on virtual particles. ALL the hypotheses for getting a universe use Big Bang. All the hypotheses are causes of Big Bang.

Virtual particles are regular matter that pops out of the vacuum, exists for about 10^-22 seconds (that's a VERY short period of time) and then disappear back into the vacuum.

Now, one hypothesis about the cause for Big Bang is quantum fluctuation. In this hypothesis, the universe is the result of a quantum fluctuation similar to virtual particles. The universe is "borrowed" from the nothing and is not caused.

 

[lucaspa]

in Genesis God said He made the heavens and the earth in seven days. But you know what i think? I think He just said that to simplify creation for us.

That's one of the non-literal translations of Genesis.

So there's no real point trying to find out how old the universe is or where life came from, bcoz when u think about - why would God let us know that? What's the point of knowing that?

God can't help but let us know all this because God had to leave the evidence of how He created in the universe He created. So, creatures created in the image of God can understand the universe God created and figure out how God created.

I think, in the Christian faith, particularly on the subject of evolution and creation, you get to the point where you just have to sit back and say 'God did this for a reason. I dont know what that reason is, but if the answer is so impossible to find, it's obviously something we're not meant to know yet.'

The controversy is over HOW God created. Evolution is just as much God creating as poofing everything into existence in 144 hours.

The Bible gives you the reason God created. The universe tells you HOW God created.

 

[Michali]

1. Big Bang does not depend on virtual particles. ALL the hypotheses for getting a universe use Big Bang. All the hypotheses are causes of Big Bang.

Virtual particles are regular matter that pops out of the vacuum, exists for about 10^-22 seconds (that's a VERY short period of time) and then disappear back into the vacuum.

Now, one hypothesis about the cause for Big Bang is quantum fluctuation. In this hypothesis, the universe is the result of a quantum fluctuation similar to virtual particles. The universe is "borrowed" from the nothing and is not caused.

I meant to be speaking of these quantum fluctuations. If they occured and created our universe, they will have created an infinite amount if the universe is infinite.

Since you think the universe is finite, you do agree that there is an "outside". We'll call the outside the void, where there is nothing. If quantum fluctuations occured in the void to make this universe, why can't it be happening again.

Or maybe, it is not dimensional at all. The expansion occured from a single point, and can only occur from a single point. But, now we have many points existing in our uiverse "bubble". Will it continue to expand?

 

[Jet Black]

Since you think the universe is finite, you do agree that there is an "outside". We'll call the outside the void, where there is nothing. If quantum fluctuations occured in the void to make this universe, why can't it be happening again.

be a bit careful attributing the word "void"... It could be a very definite thing goverened by rules of it's own, (of which our rules could well be a subset). and it could be making more universes.

 

[lucaspa]

I meant to be speaking of these quantum fluctuations. If they occured and created our universe, they will have created an infinite amount if the universe is infinite.

And infinite amount of what?

Since you think the universe is finite, you do agree that there is an "outside". We'll call the outside the void, where there is nothing. If quantum fluctuations occured in the void to make this universe, why can't it be happening again.

1. I'm not sure our common sense idea of "outside" works here. IOW, if 'nothing' is the absence of spacetime and matter/energy, I'm not sure there is anything left of the "void" after the universe appeared.

2. However, if there is, I can't see any reason more quantum fluctuations couldn't make more universes.

Or maybe, it is not dimensional at all. The expansion occured from a single point, and can only occur from a single point. But, now we have many points existing in our uiverse "bubble". Will it continue to expand?

The data says the universe will expand forever.

However, here again is where our common sense is a hindrance. When you say "single point" you are implicitly talking about a point within an existing spacetime. What "single point" is meant to convey is that the universe was infinitely small at its inception.

Our "bubble" refers to what we can see. Since it is spacetime exanding, at some point from us the velocity of spacetime expanding is greater than that of light. So we can't see beyond that because the light emitted beyond that can't ever get to us.

And no, this is not a violation of Relativity. Relativity refers to objects moving thru spacetime. But here we have spacetime itself expanding.

 

[Michali]

And infinite amount of what?

The data says the universe will expand forever.

However, here again is where our common sense is a hindrance. When you say "single point" you are implicitly talking about a point within an existing spacetime. What "single point" is meant to convey is that the universe was infinitely small at its inception.

Oh, I'm sorry. I worded it wrong.

I meant to say that the universe is infinite if it can be created in finite amounts across an infinite void. The universe bubbles would be connecting with eachother and space would be infinite. This is actually incorrect, because here I'm thinking of the void as a spacious place.

No, the void cannot have any dimensions. Meaning the universe can only be created from a single point that hasn't any space of it's own.

Have you ever read the book "Flatlanders" by Edwin A. Abbot? There are people living in all dimensions in the book. A square from flatland (2nd dimension) visited the king who lived in no dimension land. He actually did not live in no dimension land, he was no dimension land. Imagine, you could not see out, you could not see in, you simply were everything and nothing at the same time. Meaning only one thing could have been existent in a single infinitely small point all by itself, before any effect occured. One single thing did one single thing all by itself. There was a restriction in the void that the quantity of everything had to be one, because that is all that would fit into existence.

I have read some on the string theory and the "string" would have to be a length. A planckth legnth, I think I read. If the void had no dimensions then the string could not have existed. I'm not saying its wrong, but the 0th dimension would have been even smaller than that. It had to have been a dimensionless something that existed before anything existed. (I'm not inferring anything)