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When did “consciousness” enter the Universe?

Akita Suggagaki

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"Answer".

Another trap of human language. The word invites equivocation between fact-accessible-to-human-inquiry.... and something like true-condition-of-reality, which are of course often not the same thing at all.
Perhaps it comes down to faith: is God the conscious source of it all or not?
 
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durangodawood

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Perhaps it comes down to faith: is God the conscious source of it all or not?
I dont think so. Shark mind is a good example. Even if God gave sharks a certain type of mind that lets them in fact feel X, humans cant verify what that feeling is.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I meant exactly what I wrote, straight up.
Life is persistent. It want's to happen. Nothing can stop it. If not here on Earth, than somewhere else in the cosmos.
Quite possibly, but that doesn't mean there's a 'life force'. The only relevant forces are electromagnetism and gravity, and gravity's probably optional. So electromagnetism is the only relevant force (above atomic level) that generates the complexity we see at human scales, including life.

Which is what we also have in a corpse. But when I look into my own grand-daughter's eyes and see the light of glee when she laughs, there's a lot more going on there than chemistry.
A corpse has lost the organization and integration of the energy processes of life. Emotions show what 3 billion years of evolution can do.

No, he was just waxing poetic about the fundamental chemistry of life; tongue in cheek. Biochemists can be whimsical!
 
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Vap841

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Our exchange is a tad bit odd because we are mostly agreeing with each other about the inaccessibility, however I don’t agree that the process is the same exact thing as the consciousness. The thing is that the worldview of Physicalism is very bold, it does not at all shy away from difficult questions such as the exact number of sand grains. Physicalism claims that a full exhaustive account of everything there is to know about in reality can be given by using the descriptive resources of physics. But more precisely the claim is that such an exhaustive explanation is possible with a future version of physics that is complete. So it uses this hypothetical future version of physics, however it boldly states that it’s impossible for there to be anything in reality that would fall out of its scope of description. To oppose this belief would land you into dualism or idealism (well except for an agnostic type position like mind/body pessimism that says the answer is beyond the capacity of the human mind to ever find a solution to the mind body problem, however that is to not even take a position)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I don’t know how this isn’t the same thing as saying added complexity.
All it means is that you can make a brain more complex by interconnecting all its neurons at random. But such a maximally complex system won't do anything interesting. A system that that does something interesting must be less than maximally complex by incorporating some kind of functionality; in the brain, this means a modular & hierarchical functional architecture.

Well I don't agree that qualia zombies are metaphysically possible; being able to conceive of such a thing doesn't mean it is possible. My view is that a system that is indistinguishable in all ways and under all conditions from one that has qualia, necessarily has qualia too; IOW it cannot respond and report as if it has precisely the same qualia as its non-zombie identical duplicate if it doesn't experience (and think it experiences) those qualia.

Qualia are, by definition, experiential, you can't generate identical qualia descriptions & responses under all possible conditions without being an experiential qualia-generating system.

So basically, I take a physicalist view. The qualia zombie concept begs the question by assuming what it attempts to demonstrate - that qualia are not supervenient on brain activity. I think that such a dualist claim needs to be demonstrated, i.e. tested; but by definition it cannot be, since a qualia zombie is indistinguishable from a non-zombie. So, meh to philosophical zombies

We can't know anything for sure, but we can make a reasonable assessment of the relevant likelihoods based on the available evidence.

Clearly, we can't be certain that when someone goes from apparently alert and responsive to slumped and unresponsive, they have lost consciousness, but - assuming they recover - we can ask them if they remember being conscious during that episode. Even self-reported consciousness or lack of consciousness isn't definitive, but it's as good as we can get. Most of the deficits associated with consciousness that have been studied, are either self-reportable or can be tested by careful questioning or by studying of behaviour.

I don't think Behaviourism is relevant here, but we typically judge the level of conscious function by observing active behaviour or responsiveness; for example, if members of one species consistently show an ability to solve simple puzzles and the members of another species with the same physical capabilities don't, we infer the former is more intelligent than the latter; to some extent that's what we mean by intelligence. Similarly for other aspects of consciousness.

Now, I could claim that a frog is actually capable of solving very complex problems but is just not inclined to, but unless I can support my claim with some evidence it's worthless. And we can look at all the circumstantial evidence to see how plausible the claim might be - are the relevant parts of a frog brain as large or sophisticated as the simple problem-solver's? Has any frog ever been observed to exhibit problem-solving capabilities? The evolutionary view - do complex problem-solving capabilities provide a selective advantage to a frog that would outweigh the resources to support such capabilities? and so-on. We do have the means to make reasonable inferences about changes or deficits in certain aspects of consciousness, particularly in humans that can self-report.

I'm not clear what unanswerable questions that we know for sure HAVE answers you mean - or whether that's even meaningful... If a question has an answer, then it seems to me that it is answerable, whether we actually have the answer or not.

That's my feeling too - I don't expect to be around for the sticks & stones, but I think we need to get as much done as we can before that, and maybe find a way to leave the knowledge as a legacy.
 
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SelfSim

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Well then I think you mean it is definitive by way of those criteria then(?) Ie: there are no other observable criteria and the definition is those observables. Then, of course, there is belief .. philosophical or otherwise.
 
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Bradskii

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So it uses this hypothetical future version of physics, however it boldly states that it’s impossible for there to be anything in reality that would fall out of its scope of description.

Then I think that's the point of disagreement. I believe that there is only the material world. But I believe that, however advanced we could be - even hypothetically, some things will always remain beyond us. That's not to say 'mysterious'. I think we'll know how we could possibly get an answer to everything, but that doesn't equate to being able to get that answer.
 
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SelfSim

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Vap841 said:
So it uses this hypothetical future version of physics, however it boldly states that it’s impossible for there to be anything in reality that would fall out of its scope of description.
If that's not all evidence for a mind exploring what it has its own concept of reality mean, I don't know what is? A hypothetical (anything) is like a thought experiment and it takes a mind have that thought there, doesn't it? Does anyone actually ever look at the words they write?

What we have, right there, is evidence of a mind exploring its own limits of describability of its own perceptions. The future is also just another of its own perceived concepts, so the future is still no escape pathway from the mind conceiving it.
 
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Ophiolite

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I think we'll know how we could possibly get an answer to everything, but that doesn't equate to being able to get that answer.
A different notion, but having some parallels with what you say: we have vastly more answers already than any individual can know. About the best a human can manage, if they are a true genius, is to comprehend the gross generalities and a smattering of the details of a very specific subject. The rest of us swim in a sea of ignorance which our cognitive dissonance allows us to ignore. (I bet you didn't know that - which proves my point. )
 
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Vap841

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I was wondering what your opinion is on AI? Do you think that microchips can cause the emergence of human like self awareness? I don’t see why so many people believe this when it took billions of years of evolution to culminate in self aware cortexes like ours.
Talking to yourself again, Bradskii?
No he’s not I’m listening. Fact, two of his posts in here caused me to grab a cold beer and go chill in my backyard, but he might be disappointed because they weren’t IPAs lol
 
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Bradskii

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As Socrates said, he was possibly the wisest man because he knew how little he actually knew. And just checking to confirm if it was an actual quote (or reported as an actual quote) I have headed down another educational rabbit hole and found myself reading about skepticism on the Stanford Encyclopedia web site. There goes my afternoon - during which I will discover a hell of a lot more that I didn't know this morning.

I was going to say 'Where will this end?' But of course, it doesn't. It just gets worse.
 
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Vap841

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If that's not all evidence for a mind exploring what it has its own concept of reality mean, I don't know what is? A hypothetical (anything) is like a thought experiment and it takes a mind have that thought there, doesn't it?
Yeah I think about this a lot.
The future is also just another of its own perceived concepts, so the future is still no escape pathway from the mind conceiving it.
Plus I am a fan of Hempel’s Dilemma when people anchor a theory on future knowledge that we don’t even have yet, we can’t even say what “The complete version of physics” even looks like.
 
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Bradskii

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Following on from the last post, I did some checking to see if anyone considered that there might have been a time when one man (it would have always been a man) could have known everything. Some front runners were: Inside knowledge: The maximum any one person can ever know | New Scientist

'Aristotle of course, was the “last man to know everything” – everything useful to know about the world during his lifetime. No wait, it was Leonardo da Vinci. Or was it Goethe, or his equally brilliant Teutonic contemporary Alexander von Humboldt?'

I'm not convinced. Maybe they knew more than anyone else at the time. But literally everything? I'll bet Goethe didn't know how to make a decent whisky sour.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Yes, I think it is technically possible to emulate brain function in silicon. My view is that brain function is fundamentally computational, and that implies substrate-independence. Whether such an emulation will be feasible in practice, I don't know. I suspect that human-like self-awareness requires an embodied brain, so it would be a massive technical challenge. There are also questions about the connectome and the trillions of inter-neural connections and their properties. It may not be technically practical/possible to map them all, let alone with sufficient resolution.

I don't think evolutionary history presents a problem given that we have brain examples to study and (theoretically) copy. We've recently produced a full structure-function map of the 'brain' of the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans, which should enable a complete in-silico emulation - but it only has 302 neurons rather than 80 billion... Having said that, the Human Brain Project is a serious attempt to model a brain at molecular resolution for medical purposes, and the Blue Brain Project is attempting mouse brain simulations. Progress is slow, don't hold your breath
 
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Bradskii

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I agree with this. There is no doubt that, bearing some major catastrophe, we will reach a point where we will be able to simulate, exactly, the human brain. But will we know what that 'brain in the vat' actually feels like?

Absolutely, undeniably, 100% no.
 
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Vap841

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I definitely agree with the ability to emulate it, so I believe in philosophical weak AI but not strong AI
I don't think evolutionary history presents a problem given that we have brain examples to study and (theoretically) copy.
This is an interesting reply that I haven’t thought about, as far as creating self awareness as opposed to just emulating the actions. Usually I see people reply that either no it’s not possible, or they are not nearly as concerned with your technical precision to mimic the brain and they think that Sofia is conscious.

 
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