When Are We Predestined?

[Chesterton]

I don't see anything about predestination of individuals here. All I see is

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works,

He has called. Some answer the call some don't.

but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Imagine I start a company, and I establish a pension plan which I establish to stay in place forever. All employees who choose to work for the company in the future after I'm gone will have received the gift I've given them before they were ever born.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't see anything about predestination of individuals here. All I see is

He has called. Some answer the call some don't.


Imagine I start a company, and I establish a pension plan which I establish to stay in place forever. All employees who choose to work for the company in the future after I'm gone will have received the gift I've given them before they were ever born.

Consider that Apostle Paul is writing to saved people the truth about their personal salvation. When you read words like us and you, it is a directed word towards the true church of God who are found in Christ, saved persons.

So then scripture tells us, and all scripture is GOD BREATHED, so a sure and true word from the Holy Spirit to HIS church this, 'who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works,' This is a personal rhema word of God to His people, not to all people, just His people, not meant for the world.

And Christ dies so that those who believe will not perish but have everlasting life, so then Christ died for believers, not for unbelievers. That is what atonement is all about, having your personal individual sins forgiven you.
AND their deeds, the ones those who believe did, their deeds were wrought in God's power at work within them.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[Chesterton]

Consider that Apostle Paul is writing to saved people the truth about their personal salvation. When you read words like us and you, it is a directed word towards the true church of God who are found in Christ, saved persons.

So then scripture tells us, and all scripture is GOD BREATHED, so a sure and true word from the Holy Spirit to HIS church this, 'who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works,' This is a personal rhema word of God to His people, not to all people, just His people, not meant for the world.

And Christ dies so that those who believe will not perish but have everlasting life, so then Christ dies for believers, not for unbelievers.

I don't see how you read it that way. Again, imagine I'm talking to a crowd of 100 people. I call them all to come follow me. Let's say only 10 of them decide to come and follow. Later when I'm talking to the 10 I might refer to them as "you who I have called" but that doesn't mean all 100 people weren't also called.

 

[sdowney717]

For example, Apostle Paul here is writing to 'us' who believe, not to the lost world.
Romans 5
Christ in Our Place
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Christ is the 'Great Shepherd of the sheep', He does not shepherd anyone other than HIS sheep, and it was for them that He laid down His life.

John 10:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.

 

[Chesterton]

For example, Apostle Paul here is writing to 'us' who believe, not to the lost world.

It looks to me like the lost world is who's being talked about. Especially considering everything else in the Bible.

 

[sdowney717]

It looks to me like the lost world is who's being talked about. Especially considering everything else in the Bible.

There are those who are eternally dammed and those that are eternally saved and the scripture tells us about both.

Luke 19:10
for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Luke 21:18
But not a hair of your head shall be lost.

John 6:12
So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.”

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9
that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

Now, what do you think of Luke 15, Jesus gives us parables about that which was lost, consider them in light of these other verses about Christ saving that which was lost. Christ goes after His lost sheep. It is for them that He came to 'unlose' them. They are scattered abroad in God's field which is the world.

Christ comes to gather the lost sheep given to Him by God, they belong to the Great Shepherd as He owns them, but they are scattered abroad throughout the world, note v52 which mentions the lost sheep.

John 11:47-53New King James Version (NKJV)
47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

53 Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death.

Apostle Peter tells us about the nation for whom He died. And about those who stumble over Christ the Rock, who were appointed or destined to stumble versus those who are a chosen people who obtain mercy, which means God extended mercy to them. So some are appointed to stumble over Christ and be damned as a result, and others to receive mercy from God and be saved.

1 Peter 2:7-10New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Chesterton]

I'm really not seeing what you're seeing in it, but thanks for chatting.

 

[hedrick]

Predestination is God's judgment on our lives which he foresees. He knows already, but it is our actions that determine our eternal destiny.

I'm not sure that's a Calvinist answer, but maybe. I hope so.

It's not. It's Molinist.

 

[hedrick]

When does predestination take place? At the start of a New Year I was thinking of all the babies that will be born around the world this year. Was their eternal fate destined before the beginning of the universe, or at the time of the Fall, or when?

I think the answer is pretty clear. There have been relevant Scripture citations here. Eph 1 is a reasonable example.

God's plan to redeem us was from before the world was created. As far as I know, this answer would be accepted by a lot of Christians. I don't think many of us believe that the Fall was a surprise, and he had to come up with a backup plan. Even if you think he didn't intend the Fall (and if you do, I suggest you look at Rom 11:32), he surely knew it would be a consequence of creation, and from before he created he already had planned our redemption.

The Calvinist difference isn't when God made his plan, but whether he intended to save specific people and not save others.

 

[Chesterton]

God's plan to redeem us was from before the world was created.

I agree He had a plan, I think we would disagree only on who "us" is.

The Calvinist difference isn't when God made his plan, but whether he intended to save specific people and not save others.

Not sure what you're saying here.

 

[hedrick]

Not sure what you're saying here.

I'm saying that discussions here have been over the wrong topic. People have been objecting to the idea that God's plan started out with the goal of damning certain people. The issue is the nature of the plan, not when God formed it.

 

[Chesterton]

I'm saying that discussions here have been over the wrong topic. People have been objecting to the idea that God's plan started out with the goal of damning certain people. The issue is the nature of the plan, not when God formed it.

The word I bolded and underlined is the only part I object to, and I think it very much matters when they were damned.