When Are Christians Going To Realize . . .

OllieFranz · Jul 26, 2008

More than half of the quotes on that page came from commentaries and histories and not from the Quran. Most of them also seem to be allegorical rather than literal, both the Quran quotes and the other quotes.

Here are a few passages from the Quran, each one followed by a Bible passage which says basically the same thing. How is the Quran more bloodthirsty than the Bible?

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Qur'an:4:74 "Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."

2 Timothy 4:6-8 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Qur'an:61:2 "O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Qur'an:4:78 "Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?"

Luke 23:28-31 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

Zecryphon · Jul 26, 2008

I told you I did not wish to debate this, but I will answer your question.The first verse from the Quran you offer seems to speak about a Muslim using his wealth to fight in the name of Allah. Is that what Jesus is commanding in the verse you've quoted from the Bible? No, He's not. He is saying give up your wealth and follow after me and be my disciple. The two verses are not saying the same thing. The teachings are opposed to each other. The other verses from the Quran speak of fighting in order to gain favor from Allah. The verses from the Bible do not speak of doing violence to attain favor from God, they speak of following Jesus, keeping the faith we have in Him to be able to withstand evil. I don't see the two texts promoting the same ideals at all. I said there were verses in the Quran that promoted killing and a person did not need to pervert those verses in order to arrive at that conclusion. If the verses on the page I provided are not truly from the Quran, I'm going to trust that the verses you've presented here are from the Quran and not commentaries. Those verses do speak of killing others for the sake of Allah. My initial claim was that there were verses in the Quran that did this. You have not disproven my assertion. I'm also not saying that the Bible is not a bloody book. There are many examples of war and bloodshed in the Bible. Jesus commands us to love those around us, not kill them the way Allah does.

OllieFranz · Jul 26, 2008

I was concerned more about phrasing that matching the teachings exactly, and perhaps I chose I weak example to lead off with.

Still, I'm not insisting that the martial theme can't be read literally, or even that it shouldn't be read literally. I'm just asking Why should we insist on reading it literally, when we don't read similar phrases literallly in the Bible?

Look again at the second and third examples:

Qur'an:4:74 "Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."

2 Timothy 4:6-8 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

In both of these passages the author uses a picture of a fighter, a soldier who stands to his post until the end and so gains a reward in Heaven. Why should we read Mohammed's words as any more bellicose than Paul's?

Qur'an:61:2 "O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

In both of these passages, the author speaks of vigilance and preparedness, especially in striving against evil. Why is the picture of a well trained company of soldiers working together to fight evil any more war-like than the picture of those soldiers donning their fearsome armor?

Zecryphon · Jul 26, 2008

We can read Mohammed's words as more bellicose than Paul's because of the clearly stated goal of Islam, which is to bring all into submission to Allah, and to use violence and bloodshed to do so. That message is not the same message Paul preached. Paul preached forgiveness of sins through faith in Jesus Christ which is a gift to us by the grace of God. This is my last post on this. I have supported my initial statement and so have you. Islam is a religion that clearly teaches killing others and you don't have to twist or pervert what is written in their scriptures to arrive at that conclusion. That was my point. I will not continue to derail this thread with a debate about Islam. I have done what you and KatAutumn have asked. I would like to see this thread get back on course. Thank you for your time and the light debate.

MercyBurst · Jul 26, 2008

KCKID said:
While I realize that this IS a subforum devoted to the issue of homosexuality, why IS there more Christian zeal behind the condemnation of homosexuality than ANY OTHER 'perceived sin'? If such a subforum existed on Divorce and Remarriage, for instance (an issue spoken and disapproved of by Jesus Himself), I really can't imagine it going the distance. There is certainly something MORE SPECIAL about homosexuality than ANY OTHER issue.

Why?

Because, unlike other sinners, the gays on this forum think their sins are above repentance. Unlike "gay Christians" many Christians believe that no sin is "above" this scriptural requirement. In effect their claim demerits scriptural authority and many Christians are rightfully offended when the Bible is discredited to justify gay sex and call it righteous conduct. Additionally, adulterers aren't over here telling us how righteous their sexual conduct is.

--The Bible says ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The Bible does not say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God EXCEPT gay sex offenders.

--The Bible says REPENT to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not say REPRNT unless you are gay.

katautumn · Jul 26, 2008

MercyBurst said:
Unlike "gay Christians" many of us believe that no sin is "above" this scriptural requirement.

Only you guys seem to spend more time talking about gay sex than gay people do.

MercyBurst · Jul 26, 2008

KatAutumn said:
Only you guys seem to spend more time talking about gay sex than gay people do.

There's a good way to fix that -- just close down the forum. You got my vote.

katautumn · Jul 26, 2008

MercyBurst said:
I find myself spending less time than you.

True, but the same cannot be said for some of the others. Besides, I don't feel the urge to talk about the sex aspect of being gay or lesbian. I don't feel the need to talk about how "unsanitary" it is, or how promiscuous gay men are or how they all die of AIDS by the age of forty. I prefer to defend to emotional aspect of same-sex relationships rather than the sexual technicalities.

KCKID · Jul 26, 2008

bsd13 said:
Yes I agree you are being absurd. In one breath you tell us that you are not twisting scripture to fit what you want it to say and in the next you say that it was written for a time and culture long ago and therefore isn't applicable to today.

To my knowledge I have done no such thing as 'twisting' the scriptures. What I HAVE done is to either call someone out for imposing outdated and specifically cultural commands on modern-day society as well as having questioned the popular interpretations of certain scriptures. I have no intention or even CAUSE to support any kind of wrongdoing by reinventing the scriptures. You are obviously a traditionalist who gets uneasy whenever someone views the scriptures differently from you. It's an unhealthy as well as a dangerous situation to be so headlong into your belief that there is no room for another viewpoint. Being intolerant of any ideas other than your own is called bigotry.

bsd13 said:
I suppose to your way of manipulating the scripture to fall in line with your views reading them as they are actually written does seem absurd.

Either give me me an example where I have 'manipulated' scripture or retract that statement. If you don't want to search through my posts to find examples - I don't think you'll find any - then you need to state that you don't feel like searching through my posts to find examples. That will be the same as a retraction but will probably save you face. I'm very considerate.

bsd13 said:
It certainly would to me. God said he does NOT change, right? So how then is it that he does not change but somehow his commandments and warnings change to fit our culture? Sorry, but THAT idea is absurd!

Death to disobedient children? Death to adulterers? Death to those who profane the Sabbath? Death to . . . The list is endless, bsd13, of commands that are either no longer relevant or commands that may still be relevant but that no longer incur such a harsh penalty. These were the commands and the penalties that God imposed according to the Bible. Did God not change?

Here is one of my favorites that is relevant to modern-day Christianity. One particular command that is no longer relevant to Christians because they believe that the command was nailed to the cross is the Sabbath command. That's the Sabbath command of the 4th-commandment of the Big Ten. God blessed and sanctified the seventh-day at Creation and asked his people (the Jews? Christians?) to 'remember' that day and to keep it holy. Mainstream Christians don't honor the 7th-day Sabbath because they say that God changed the day to Sunday.

And you say that God doesn't change? You really DO need to brush up on your Bible study because there are many examples of God 'changing'.

bsd13 said:
And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything to the effect of I was obedient to the law. You just decided to twist what I said the same way as you twisted what God said in order to fit what you wanted it to say to make your point.

Excuse me ...? You isolated one verse from 30 verses of Leviticus 18 and dangled that verse in front of the homosexuals or the ''anti anti-gays' on this subforum. Where did I twist what God said by presenting the ENTIRE chapter to the subforum for all to see and to reason out for themselves? Either you adhere to or promote the keeping of ALL 30 verses or you keep quiet. Many Christians do this kind of underhanded tactic so much of the time. They isolate one text to support their own bigotry to the exclusion of context or culture.

bsd13 said:
Finally while I'm not "anti-gay" I'd certainly rather be anti-gay than anti-God if that was my only option.

Your major 'option' or 'priority' is NOT to a book (the Bible is NOT God!) but to your fellow human beings. You must not malign or discriminate against them because of what might be your own ignorance in relation to the scriptures you present. God NEVER told you or anyone else to be anti-gay!

bsd13 said:
No doubt you too would agree with that as well. After all if you're anti-God you can't possibly be fulfilling the two great commandments.

Again ...the Bible is NOT God even though a number of folks on this subforum seem to believe the actual print IS God Himself jumping out of the book ...and, generally, waving an impatient finger at everyone else but THEM, I quickly add! It's a mind-boggling situation to know that so many otherwise intelligent human beings actually believe this to be the case.

I believe in loving my neighbor (even though I often fall short miserably!) and that means accepting them despite their flaws (again, I'm still left wanting). I used to be one of the most sanctimonious people you could meet. Why? I have no idea since my behavior more suggested that I was a hypocrite. This WAS before I became a Christian, however. I'm so glad that I changed all of that and recognized that I'm no better than anyone else. By the way, the above is not simply rhetoric but the truth. I'm a sinner and I have no cause to point the finger at anyone else ...with or without the support of the Bible. You're no better than I am so just consider that when you dangle the print from a book in front of someone else. Okay?

bsd13 · Jul 26, 2008

KCKID said:
To my knowledge I have done no such thing as 'twisting' the scriptures. What I HAVE done is to either call someone out for imposing outdated and specifically cultural commands on modern-day society as well as having questioned the popular interpretations of certain scriptures. I have no intention or even CAUSE to support any kind of wrongdoing by reinventing the scriptures. You are obviously a traditionalist who gets uneasy whenever someone views the scriptures differently from you. It's an unhealthy as well as a dangerous situation to be so headlong into your belief that there is no room for another viewpoint. Being intolerant of any ideas other than your own is called bigotry.

Either give me me an example where I have 'manipulated' scripture or retract that statement. If you don't want to search through my posts to find examples - I don't think you'll find any - then you need to state that you don't feel like searching through my posts to find examples. That will be the same as a retraction but will probably save you face. I'm very considerate.

Death to disobedient children? Death to adulterers? Death to those who profane the Sabbath? Death to . . . The list is endless, bsd13, of commands that are either no longer relevant or commands that may still be relevant but that no longer incur such a harsh penalty. These were the commands and the penalties that God imposed according to the Bible. Did God not change?

Here is one of my favorites that is relevant to modern-day Christianity. One particular command that is no longer relevant to Christians because they believe that the command was nailed to the cross is the Sabbath command. That's the Sabbath command of the 4th-commandment of the Big Ten. God blessed and sanctified the seventh-day at Creation and asked his people (the Jews? Christians?) to 'remember' that day and to keep it holy. Mainstream Christians don't honor the 7th-day Sabbath because they say that God changed the day to Sunday.

And you say that God doesn't change? You really DO need to brush up on your Bible study because there are many examples of God 'changing'.

Excuse me ...? You isolated one verse from 30 verses of Leviticus 18 and dangled that verse in front of the homosexuals or the ''anti anti-gays' on this subforum. Where did I twist what God said by presenting the ENTIRE chapter to the subforum for all to see and to reason out for themselves? Either you adhere to or promote the keeping of ALL 30 verses or you keep quiet. Many Christians do this kind of underhanded tactic so much of the time. They isolate one text to support their own bigotry to the exclusion of context or culture.

Your major 'option' or 'priority' is NOT to a book (the Bible is NOT God!) but to your fellow human beings. You must not malign or discriminate against them because of what might be your own ignorance in relation to the scriptures you present. God NEVER told you or anyone else to be anti-gay!

Again ...the Bible is NOT God even though a number of folks on this subforum seem to believe the actual print IS God Himself jumping out of the book ...and, generally, waving an impatient finger at everyone else but THEM, I quickly add! It's a mind-boggling situation to know that so many otherwise intelligent human beings actually believe this to be the case.

I believe in loving my neighbor (even though I often fall short miserably!) and that means accepting them despite their flaws (again, I'm still left wanting). I used to be one of the most sanctimonious people you could meet. Why? I have no idea since my behavior more suggested that I was a hypocrite. This WAS before I became a Christian, however. I'm so glad that I changed all of that and recognized that I'm no better than anyone else. By the way, the above is not simply rhetoric but the truth. I'm a sinner and I have no cause to point the finger at anyone else ...with or without the support of the Bible. You're no better than I am so just consider that when you dangle the print from a book in front of someone else. Okay?

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness... - 2 Timothy 3:16

The only question that needs answering at this point is simply this. Is the passage I've cited above true, or not? A simple yes or no will do. We don't need you philosophical opinion on it just to know if you agree or disagree with that scripture.

MercyBurst · Jul 26, 2008

bsd13 said:
The only question that needs answering at this point is simply this. Is the passage I've cited above true, or not? A simple yes or no will do. We don't need you philosophical opinion on it just to know if you agree or disagree with that scripture.

You are correct.

God cares nothing for human culture or traditions. When God spoke to the prophets He wasn't "trying to be cool" to jibe with the times.

Yet you'll hear the Bible bashers squirming everyway they can to discredit the scriptures with human culture and traditions that constantly change.

This is why I think this forum should be closed -- because this is a Christian forum -- not a "diss the Bible" forum.

BTW, Jesus wasn't being "stylish" when He said:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

MercyBurst · Jul 26, 2008

God blessed and sanctified the seventh-day at Creation and asked his people (the Jews? Christians?) to 'remember' that day and to keep it holy. Mainstream Christians don't honor the 7th-day Sabbath because they say that God changed the day to Sunday.

There must be a reason that ALL mainstream Christian denominations honor Resurrection Sunday ... ya think...

Unfortunately for you gay sex wasn't celebrated when Jesus rose from the grave.

KCKID · Jul 26, 2008

MercyBurst said:
Because, unlike other sinners, the gays on this forum think their sins are above repentance.

I'm going to have to call you out on this one, MB. You're so vague with your finger-pointing about sin, sin, sin. You remind me of an overly-zealous cop. So, what IS this/these sin/s that homosexuals need to be repentant of? I'm serious, what is it ...lying? sodomy? idol worship? their sexual attraction in and of itself? What?

MercyBurst said:
Unlike "gay Christians" many Christians believe that no sin is "above" this scriptural requirement.

So, again ...what is this sin you keep harping about?

MercyBurst said:
In effect their claim demerits scriptural authority and many Christians are rightfully offended when the Bible is discredited to justify gay sex and call it righteous conduct. Additionally, adulterers aren't over here telling us how righteous their sexual conduct is.

Oh, so it's 'gay' sex that is the unrepentant sin, eh? Well, how do you know that it's unrepentant ...do you know every homosexual person? What I have seen on this forum are homosexual people who have most definitely stated that they believe that sex is only proper within a committed relationship. This is why so many desire to marry their partner because it seems the right thing to do. You, on the other hand, would not even allow this if it were up to you. You leave them absolutely no wiggle room because of your seeming obsession with the words from the Bible. The remarks you make in your posts make you sound quite a callous person, no offense meant. I don't know you personally, obviously, and you may not be callous in real life. (I added the last bit because I don't want to get into trouble with the mods ...I'm honest if nothing else ).

As for adulterers not being over here telling us how righteous their sexual conduct is ...they NEVER get accused of negative sexual conduct by such as yourself, MB, so they don't need to. However, if you WERE to criticize them openly and so obsessively on a subforum set up to discuss adultery (it won't happen!) most of them would tell you to find the door and to close it behind you. And you know that!

MercyBurst said:
--The Bible says ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The Bible does not say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God EXCEPT gay sex offenders.

Is there a 'yawning' smiley anywhere? Let it go, MB ...don't take it so personally. Stop playing God ...please!

MercyBurst said:
--The Bible says REPENT to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not say REPRNT unless you are gay.

The reason for that, of course, is that 'being gay' per se is not a sin to be repented of ...now is it?

MercyBurst · Jul 26, 2008

The Church didn't start accepting gay sex when Jesus rose from the grave, as much as you want them to.

KCKID · Jul 26, 2008

MercyBurst said:
There must be a reason that ALL mainstream Christian denominations honor Resurrection Sunday ... ya think...

No cigar, MB. MAN-MADE holy days are NOT divinely recognized. Only God has the authority to change the Creation Sabbath, NOT the RC Church! Try again.

MercyBurst said:
Unfortunately for you gay sex wasn't celebrated when Jesus rose from the grave.

God NOWHERE commands that Jesus' Resurrection be celebrated either. So what's your point?

KCKID · Jul 26, 2008

bsd13 said:
The only question that needs answering at this point is simply this. Is the passage I've cited above true, or not? A simple yes or no will do. We don't need you philosophical opinion on it just to know if you agree or disagree with that scripture.

I can't simply answer with a pert yes or no. My question would be, how does Paul KNOW that all scripture (and that's only the OT he's talking about, by the way) is 'God-breathed'? He may WELL have believed that because he was raised in a culture that believed this to the letter! Many of them went on to become Pharisees. His culture believed in many 'God-breathed' things that are totally foreign to us today. You TOO believe that all scripture is 'God-breathed' but that in and of itself proves nothing, now does it?

My answer is, I don't know. My question to you is, how do YOU know all scripture is 'God-breathed' ...because Paul (a fellow human being) tells you so? Do you believe everything George Bush tells you? If not, why not? He's no different to Paul - he even considers himself a Christian - and I'm sure he has the intelligence (well, that might be debatable) to have written letters (epistles) to other people in his lifetime.

bsd13 · Jul 26, 2008

KCKID said:
I can't simply answer with a pert yes or no. My question would be, how does Paul KNOW that all scripture (and that's only the OT he's talking about, by the way) is 'God-breathed'? He may WELL have believed that because he was raised in a culture that believed this to the letter! Many of them went on to become Pharisees. His culture believed in many 'God-breathed' things that are totally foreign to us today. You TOO believe that all scripture is 'God-breathed' but that in and of itself proves nothing, now does it?

My answer is, I don't know. My question to you is, how do YOU know all scripture is 'God-breathed' ...because Paul (a fellow human being) tells you so? Do you believe everything George Bush tells you? If not, why not? He's no different to Paul - he even considers himself a Christian - and I'm sure he has the intelligence (well, that might be debatable) to have written letters (epistles) to other people in his lifetime.

So basically you are calling all of scripture suspect and possibly untrue. Because if you don't believe one line, especially the line that basically tells us that it is all from God, then you can't really be fully behind any of the rest of it from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21

As to why I believe, because God said it.

Let God be true, and every man a liar - Romans 3:4

And George Bush has nothing to do with this.

So since you do not firmly believe all scripture is of God we have no common starting point to discuss it.

katautumn · Jul 26, 2008

MercyBurst said:
You are correct.

God cares nothing for human culture or traditions. When God spoke to the prophets He wasn't "trying to be cool" to jibe with the times.

Yet you'll hear the Bible bashers squirming everyway they can to discredit the scriptures with human culture and traditions that constantly change.

This is why I think this forum should be closed -- because this is a Christian forum -- not a "diss the Bible" forum.

BTW, Jesus wasn't being "stylish" when He said:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So the Bible, despite being written during a particular time period in which cultural beliefs, laws and practices were completely different than they are today, is still applicable today? So that would mean ALL of the Bible, from cover to cover, is applicable in our lives today. I mean, nowhere in the Bible does it refer to marriage being between one man and one woman who have chosen to love one another. Marriages were arranged them and they had nothing to do with love. The Bible also says that women should not wear cosmetics, excessive jewelry, clothes that pertain to a man or dress her hair in elaborate fashions. In the New Testament, the Bible says that the older women should train the younger women to be keepers of the home. Does that mean that a middle-aged woman who encourages younger women to work outside of the home is committing unrepentant sin?

katautumn · Jul 26, 2008

Also, it should be noted that arguing against homosexuality is really quite silly. The word "love" appears in the Bible (KJV) over six-hundred times. How many times does the word "homosexual" appear?

bsd13 · Jul 26, 2008

KatAutumn said:
Also, it should be noted that arguing against homosexuality is really quite silly

Forgive me for isolating one thing you've said, but if it's silly why are you here in the forum called Debates on Homosexuality?

THAT is silly.

When Are Christians Going To Realize . . .

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Prodigal Daughter

Senior Veteran

Prodigal Daughter

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Prodigal Daughter

Prodigal Daughter

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency