when an abuser repents

[TomCS]

Enough already, with the incorrect theology which is being expressed in this thread. We are now living in the dispensation of grace, we are NOT living in the Kingdom dispensation. God's rules are different for those two time periods. Today, our forgiveness from God is NOT dependent upon our forgiveness of other people. Under grace, God has forgiven all believers for all of their sins up front. That was not the case in the Kingdom dispensation. Under the Kingdom program, a person must forgive others in order to be forgiven by God. The Kingdom has been postponed, the dispensation of grace is now in effect instead, and the rules and doctrine are different now.

God's truth for us today, regarding our forgiveness from God is in Ephesians 4:31-32. Stop quoting Matthew 6:14-15 out of context. That has absolutely no application in the time in God's program in which we are living today.

http://www.bereanworkman.com

http://www.bereanworkman.com

http://www.bereanworkman.com

 

[Victory of the Cross]

Enough already, with the incorrect theology which is being expressed in this thread. We are now living in the dispensation of grace, we are NOT living in the Kingdom dispensation. God's rules are different for those two time periods. Today, our forgiveness from God is NOT dependent upon our forgiveness of other people. Under grace, God has forgiven all believers for all of their sins up front. That was not the case in the Kingdom dispensation. Under the Kingdom program, a person must forgive others in order to be forgiven by God. The Kingdom has been postponed, the dispensation of grace is now in effect instead, and the rules and doctrine are different now.

God's truth for us today, regarding our forgiveness from God is in Ephesians 4:31-32. Stop quoting Matthew 6:14-15 out of context. That has absolutely no application in the time in God's program in which we are living today.

http://www.bereanworkman.com

http://www.bereanworkman.com

http://www.bereanworkman.com

The words of Jesus are always what we must live by, Jesus spoke that his words would judge us John 12:47-48, pauls epistles are nothing but first century opinion pieces.

 

[TomCS]

The words of Jesus are always what we must live by, Jesus spoke that his words would judge us John 12:47-48, pauls epistles are nothing but first century opinion pieces.

Then when will you be selling all of your possessions, and giving the proceeds to the poor? Probably never, I would imagine.

 

[Messy]

I'm 20 years old, but unfortunately am unable to move out because I'm paying tuition with no help from anyone (no scholarships, no parental help because my mom can't afford to and my dad won't pay for anything that isn't spent on himself).

What angers me is that it seems the Bible is telling us to just put up with abuse like it doesn't happen and to be warm and affectionate with people even though they continue to hurt us, and to forego the idea of getting justice for ourselves so other people can.

No it doesn't. I recently read that abuse was a Biblical reason for divorce, already in the Old Testament. Is this abuse going on still? It has to stop. It is christian to call the police, not to let the devil work through him and let him do what he wants.
If you have a hard time forgiving, realize it's a demon you're dealing with who will get his punishment. My brother only abused me once and he was sorry afterwards, so for me it was easy to forgive, but it did ruin my marriage, so I'm glad that demon gets tormented forever. My brother lead me to the Lord.

 

[Messy]

Enough already, with the incorrect theology which is being expressed in this thread. We are now living in the dispensation of grace, we are NOT living in the Kingdom dispensation. God's rules are different for those two time periods. Today, our forgiveness from God is NOT dependent upon our forgiveness of other people. Under grace, God has forgiven all believers for all of their sins up front. That was not the case in the Kingdom dispensation. Under the Kingdom program, a person must forgive others in order to be forgiven by God. The Kingdom has been postponed, the dispensation of grace is now in effect instead, and the rules and doctrine are different now.

God's truth for us today, regarding our forgiveness from God is in Ephesians 4:31-32. Stop quoting Matthew 6:14-15 out of context. That has absolutely no application in the time in God's program in which we are living today.

http://www.bereanworkman.com

http://www.bereanworkman.com

http://www.bereanworkman.com

If we don't forgive, God can't even forgive us. His grace leads to repentance, so if it doesn't it's false grace.

 

[mjmcmillan]

So, lemme see if I got this straight.

God forgives me because He is gracious. OK, got that.

Tom, you say I don't have to forgive my abuser if she comes to me and asks that I forgive her? (For those that don't know, I was a male victim of domestic violence.) How do I work around that one? Jesus made it pretty plain that forgiveness on my part was expected, if I remember that passage right.

Further-- in the parable, I seem to remember that the master got pretty rough on the servant who refused to forgive his underling, since the master had forgiven him an incredible debt and the servant didn't forgive a much smaller debt.

Seems there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room there. I could be wrong of course....

 

[TomCS]

I'm probably wasting my time by posting yet another link which people won't read, since people are just going to believe what they want to believe. But I'll give it a shot anyway.

http://www.bereanworkman.com

Should you forgive others? Yes. Are you required to forgive others, in order to receive forgiveness from God in the current dispensation of grace? No, absolutely not. If that were the case, then you would be offering a meritorious act to God, in order to obligate Him to bless you. That is how law works, thus it is the polar opposite of how grace works.

The Kingdom parables have no spiritual application today, since the literal Kingdom on earth was postponed. God interrupted the Kingdom program temporarily, in order to usher in the dispensation of grace (in which we now live today, until the Rapture of the Church)

 

[razzelflabben]

Enough already, with the incorrect theology which is being expressed in this thread. We are now living in the dispensation of grace, we are NOT living in the Kingdom dispensation. God's rules are different for those two time periods. Today, our forgiveness from God is NOT dependent upon our forgiveness of other people. Under grace, God has forgiven all believers for all of their sins up front. That was not the case in the Kingdom dispensation. Under the Kingdom program, a person must forgive others in order to be forgiven by God. The Kingdom has been postponed, the dispensation of grace is now in effect instead, and the rules and doctrine are different now.

God's truth for us today, regarding our forgiveness from God is in Ephesians 4:31-32. Stop quoting Matthew 6:14-15 out of context. That has absolutely no application in the time in God's program in which we are living today.

http://www.bereanworkman.com

http://www.bereanworkman.com

http://www.bereanworkman.com

I read this to my husband because I knew it would set him off...he wants me to ask you, "where does dispensation theology come from?"

 

[razzelflabben]

If we don't forgive, God can't even forgive us. His grace leads to repentance, so if it doesn't it's false grace.

I was going to stay out of this argument just because certain people in it would not listen to anything that is not in their amen vocabulary, but your post, inspired me to respond. First, amen, we need to forgive....wanted to add to your post a reminder of I Cor. 13 in which we see that Love keeps no record of wrongs, that means, Love forgives. Let us further add to our understanding that scripture says that the law of Love sums up all the law and prophets, that means that unless we forgive, as it tells us in I Cor. 13 love is, we are law breakers and not only is that what sin is, but it is the very contrast of who God is and who He has called us to be.

 

[mjmcmillan]

I'm probably wasting my time by posting yet another link which people won't read, since people are just going to believe what they want to believe. But I'll give it a shot anyway.

Tom, you're absolutely right about it being a waste of time to post these links. I didn't bother to click even one of them because the rest of your post poses a major problem.

See, it's like this: I have in my possession a NIV study bible, two NASB bibles, and somewhere around here I have a KJV bible. Not one of them--- not even one-- states anywhere that we can disregard the words of Jesus regarding forgiveness. Not in the Gospels. Not in the Pauline letters. Not in the letters from John or Peter. Not in Acts, which traditionally we believe was written by Luke. Not anywhere.

So, I have to wonder just where you got this from, and I have a suspicion about that which won't be presentable here so I reckon I won't say that.

Now, this I will say, for the benefit of everybody else. We're in all this trouble because somebody (we won't give names now, will we, Eve) went with a word that God didn't exactly say. So, when I see something as badly off the track scripturally as your presentation of Dispensationalism is, I gotta call you on that. Scripture just doesn't say that anywhere.


For the rest: I've heard it said that we don't forgive because our enemy deserves forgiveness. We forgive because we need peace-- and forgiving those who hurt us -- and giving it to God-- is the only real way to achieve this peace.

 

[mjmcmillan]

Maybe I oughta add this for your consideration. Let's just suppose my ex-wife, who so sorely abused me half a decade ago, was to come to me today, confess she was wrong to do what she did and ask forgiveness. Further, she were to show signs of genuine repentance.

In order to do this, it seems to me that she would have had to go to God and make things right with Him, and in that light she would come to me with all of this.

If God forgave her, who am I to say "I will not forgive"? Am I better than God, that I should withhold that which He bestows on us freely when we repent and seek His forgiveness? Especially in light of that parable that Jesus told about the servant who had been forgiven much, but refused to forgive his underling who owed him little?

OK, as it happens, my ex hasn't come to me in this way and I have doubts that she ever will. However--- Jesus asked His Father to forgive the people who were crucifying Him "for they know not what they do". And, Stephen, when he was being stoned to death, said "Please don't hold this against them" in forgiveness of those killing him. In light of that-- how can I hold bitterness forever since these have shown the more excellent way?

Let it go.

 

[Messy]

And, Stephen, when he was being stoned to death, said "Please don't hold this against them" in forgiveness of those killing him.

He prayed that for Paul.

And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

 

[mjmcmillan]

He prayed that for Paul.

And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

He prayed that for everybody there--- he didn't know Saul would later become Paul, in fact Saul was probably shouting for Stephen's death as loudly as anybody there. Consider that within days, Saul was at the Sanhedrin, seeking authority to hunt down any and all who were members of "The Way" as Christians were known at that time. When Stephen died, he couldn't necessarily know that any of these people would be chosen later to follow Christ. So-- his prayer of forgiveness was a blanket one, for all who were killing him.

 

[razzelflabben]

Maybe I oughta add this for your consideration. Let's just suppose my ex-wife, who so sorely abused me half a decade ago, was to come to me today, confess she was wrong to do what she did and ask forgiveness. Further, she were to show signs of genuine repentance.

In order to do this, it seems to me that she would have had to go to God and make things right with Him, and in that light she would come to me with all of this.

If God forgave her, who am I to say "I will not forgive"? Am I better than God, that I should withhold that which He bestows on us freely when we repent and seek His forgiveness? Especially in light of that parable that Jesus told about the servant who had been forgiven much, but refused to forgive his underling who owed him little?

OK, as it happens, my ex hasn't come to me in this way and I have doubts that she ever will. However--- Jesus asked His Father to forgive the people who were crucifying Him "for they know not what they do". And, Stephen, when he was being stoned to death, said "Please don't hold this against them" in forgiveness of those killing him. In light of that-- how can I hold bitterness forever since these have shown the more excellent way?

Let it go.

what I am about to say, in no way, shape, or form is in disagreement with your post....!

Sometimes the hard part is forgiving when the person shows no repentance. For example, my father used to cry (not something he does) and say he was sorry. He even has been known to apologize to me (something he does not do), but then before the words are even cold, he does the same stuff. This is confession without repentance and since we cannot see the heart of man, something that is very difficult for us to forgive and get past after repeated times of see it. None the less, as you have said, we need to forgive and the only way to do that, is in the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Criada]

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[mimibeloved]

If you forgive your abuser, your mind is set free from the poison. But then you don't have to reconcile, because then you woiuld be enabling more abuse which is a sin. Forgiving doesn't mean being a victim again. Forgive, forget and get away. You have no obligation to an unrepentant abuser. Do no cast your pearls before the swine. God does not expect you to sacrifice your body and/or psyche to the devil. God does not receive us unless we repent, why should you hold the devil in your bosom? It is a satanic lie that we should continue close relations with an unreformed abuser.

 

[razzelflabben]

If you forgive your abuser, your mind is set free from the poison. But then you don't have to reconcile, because then you woiuld be enabling more abuse which is a sin. Forgiving doesn't mean being a victim again. Forgive, forget and get away. You have no obligation to an unrepentant abuser. Do no cast your pearls before the swine. God does not expect you to sacrifice your body and/or psyche to the devil. God does not receive us unless we repent, why should you hold the devil in your bosom? It is a satanic lie that we should continue close relations with an unreformed abuser.

however, if reconciliation is offered, then what in your opinion?

 

[mimibeloved]

Abuse is something that escalates. It starts with insults and develops into violence, sometimes even murder if the abuser is not stopped. True repentance, meaning a radical change of behaviour, is very difficult for an abusive person. Often there will be lots of pretty promises and new resolutions which are quickly broken. In the meantime, the victim is still being abused. When I finally cut my abuser out of my life, I shed a lot of emotional problems, though not all. 15 years later, this person still has not changed at all.