Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Notice that you found it appropriate to add "or any" to your statement. 'Any' is exactly what is meant by the last (all are made alive in Christ). That is, if ANY are to be made alive, it is in Christ.if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.
And I could quote scriptures that suggest that God has a body, that he walked around in the garden, that he didn't want Moses to see his "face" but only his "back." There are scriptures that suggest that God regrets having done things suggesting that he's entirely capable of making mistakes and unable to see outcomes ahead of time. Other scriptures suggest that he is reactive (can become wrathful and angry in response to human actions).
But none of this is properly true of God. It cannot be. All of these qualities could only be properly true of a finite being. An infinite being can't have a body, can't react or regret (as if he didn't know what would happen beforehand), can't even change in any real way. If one is infinite, how would one change? If one is infinite, there is no potential within that being to be other-than-as-that-being-is. See the writings of any major father of the church, and you'll get the gist of what I'm saying here. This is all anthropomorphic language.
If God is sitting around waiting to see what you'll decide (regarding salvation) then he's really just like you and me. He would be contingent, limited, finite, like a big ole creature. Maybe like a maximally-great human (e.g., Zeus)... But no, he isn't waiting around ready to respond. He "knows the end from the beginning," right?
I only offered once such verse. As you probably know if you've really interacted with universalists a lot, they offer many other verses to support their position.
And I responded by denying equality. It seems we have ample reasons for denying equality and presuming some type of inequality in the afterlife. The entire notion of "storing up for yourselves treasures in heaven" presumes this idea of the last being first, and the first last. It would seem to presume inequality in the hereafter.
The second great commandment is that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. But, Christ later gives a "new commandment" when speaking to his disciples--"love one another, as I have loved you" (John 13). And, as I quoted St Paul in Galatians 6 above, we are do "do good" to everyone, but "especially to those in the household of faith." There is nothing strange about preferencing "family" when it comes to love. But, the neighbor and the stranger and the sojourner must receive our love too. It's just that they'll get it from me after I love my kids. Not before I love my kids, nor even simultaneous with (or equal to) the love that I show my children.
So, in the here and in the hereafter, there would seem to be no equality of outcome. But whereas inequality often seems arbitrary and unjust in this life, we hope for nothing but justice in whatever inequality may persist in the next life (1 Cor 3:10-15).
I never denied there is anthropomorphic language used about God. God is given certain human physical attributes (face, arms, hands, feet) certain human actions (walks, sits, smells) human emotions (jealous).
But there are certain traits about God that are not anthropomorphisms....
Love, grace, mercy, compassion, longsuffering, truth etc are NOT anthropomorphisms but are inherent in the very nature of God, they are who God is.
I read where one person tried to write off God's intelligence as an anthropomorphism.
Respectfully, I can choose words carefully, Mark."Sponsor sin"? You can't choose words carefully here, lol. He does or he does not cause all things.
I agree.Who said, "to directly cause men to sin?" Can God not cause something specific to happen without directly causing it? In most things by far, it seems God uses means (i.e. secondary causes, tertiary and so on) to accomplish what he causes. God caused all things, including that sin be, but that doesn't mean he is the author of sin.
Perhaps.It seems a good study of sin is in order here.
I'd rather not use "logic", thanks.But let me throw a point of logic in here. Logic must prevail throughout (not that any man is capable of it, and we all assume things drawn on our POV.) If Cause-and-effect prevails, then there is no such thing as true spontaneity or autonomy, uncaused causing, on the part of creatures-- effects, all of them. Certainly we do cause, as do most effects, but we and what we do are still effects. Also, there is no such thing as something happening by mere chance.
Big brains are not needed. Faith is needed. There are PHD professors who teach NT but are not of the faith.1 Corinthians 15, the entire chapter, is an extended series of Pauline thoughts on resurrection. In a footnote to the NAB-RE, the editors note, "Some consider this chapter an earlier Pauline composition inserted into the present letter." It all goes together as a totality. The only thing that can be gathered from this chapter with any certainty on the universalism/eternal-Hell question is that the last enemy to be destroyed will be death. Death itself will pass away.
All die because of Adam, and all are resurrected because of Christ. Nothing here is mentioned in the chapter about any humans being excluded because they don't believe (or for any other reason).
There is no way to exclude universalism a priori. The New Testament is quite ambiguous on this issue, having passages that seem to suggest support for both Hell and universalism. Given that not a few of the brightest minds of the church have held a view open to universalism throughout church history should be enough for us to approach the issue with humility. For every quote that an eternal-Hell advocate might present, a universalist can offer a quote from the NT that strongly suggests universalism.
Moreover, the united church of the first millennium never condemned universalism. The most that ever happened on this issue was that the emperor Justinian wrote a series of anathemas against aspects of the theology of Origen. The emperor asked that the fathers of Constantinople II include his anathemas within the decrees of that ecumenical council. But, modern scholarship has concluded that the anathemas were never incorporated into that council's decrees (see Norman Tanner's editorial notes on Constantinople II in his Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Georgetown University Press, 1990). So, it's likely that universalism has never been condemned in an ecumenical council.
Now, whatever are someone's personal beliefs on eschatology is a different story. Some folks are convinced of the Augustinian vision of an eternal Hell, maybe even believing that most people who have ever lived are headed there. Still others are oriented toward believing that the scriptures, theology and philosophy, when taken together, are strongly suggestive of universalism. Others opt for a "middle way," of a limited Hell with some sense of temporality/finitude intrinsic to it, with Heaven having an inequality due to how a person lived her life here (i.e., the last shall be first). And then there's the also-ran of annihilationism..
I've participated in these types of discussions many times over in the past. I know that folks get very impassioned that their particular view on eschatology must be the correct one (i.e., it's "biblical"). But, given the sheer numbers of big brains in our church's past who have disagreed with St Augustine's vision of eternal-Hell, the "openness" of the church's history on this issue, and the recent resurgence of scholarship on this topic should be enough to force a little humility here. We all want to think we have "the truth" on this issue, but as you dig deeper and deeper, the water gets muddier and muddier.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.So all die in adam and so all will be made alive.However, since - eternal torment -It means some people don't die, since most people will not be made alive in Christ.Comments?
Faith is needed.
The 2nd death is clear in scripture. The debate is whether the soul is destroyed by the lake of fire or aware and tormented by the lake of fire.
Jesus did not pray for the world.
Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
The sin against Christ on the cross was forgiven. But as in John 17 He prayed for those who believed in Him and those who would come to believe in Him through their message. As He stated He didn't pray for the world.I have a lot of faith that “His mercy endures forever,” as the psalmist says.
I have faith that “God is love,” as St John says. I have faith that “God is the savior of all, but especially of those who believe,” as St Paul says (1 Tim 4:10).
If you go back through the history of the church on this issue of eschatology, you will not find many advocates of “annihilationism” (the soul being destroyed by the lake of fire). So no, the debate about Hell hasn’t been between St Augustine’s vision of eternal-Hell and annihilationism; but rather between eternal-Hell and a limited, finite Hell with the entirety of humanity eventually returning to God, though not on an equal standing before God (the last will be first and the first, last). That has been the proper debate over the centuries.
“Father forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing.” - Luke 23:34
“And I, if I am lifted up will draw all men to me.” - John 12:32
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.” - John 17:21-23
Commentary from some Church Fathers on these verses from Matthew 7:
AUGUSTINE. (Serm. in Mont. ii. 22.) The Lord had warned us above to have a heart single and pure with which to seek God; but as this belongs to but few, He begins to speak of finding out wisdom. For the searching out and contemplation whereof there has been formed through all the foregoing such an eye as may discern the narrow way and strait gate; whence He adds, Enter ye in at the strait gate.
GLOSS. (ord.) Though it be hard to do to another what you would have done to yourself; yet so must we do, that we may enter the strait gate.
Though love be wide, yet it leads men from the earth through difficult and steep ways. It is sufficiently difficult to cast aside all other things, and to love One only, not to aim at prosperity, not to fear adversity.
CHRYSOSTOM. Let us not therefore be sad when many sorrows befal us here, for the way is strait, but not the city; therefore neither need we look for rest here, nor expect any thing of sorrow there. When He says, Few there be that find it, He points to the sluggishness of the many, and instructs His hearers not to look to the prosperity of the many, but to the toils of the few.
JEROME. Attend to the words, for they have an especial force, many walk in the broad way—few find the narrow way. For the broad way needs no search, and is not found, but presents itself readily; it is the way of all who go astray. Whereas the narrow way neither do all find, nor when they have found, do they straightway walk therein. Many, after they have found the way of truth, caught by the pleasures of the world, desert midway.
The sin against Christ on the cross was forgiven.
As He stated He didn't pray for the world.
I am not one who holds to annihilationism
If you can find a teaching where Jesus taught that one could reject Him for any reason and live please show so
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
As I read:Or, “Father forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing” is a disposition of forgiveness that we are to daily emulate. How many times are we to forgive? 70 times 7 - iow unendingly. “If you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will you Father in heaven forgive you.” Matt 6. Forgiveness, mercy, love and compassion are to be your ongoing frameworks for looking at and dealing with humanity.
An attitude of judgment/condemnation is never, under any circumstances, appropriate or warranted in life. The only disposition that is acceptable is an ongoing orientation toward love, hope and forgiveness for all. God loves the world and desires all to be saved.
You claimed that Christ did not pray for the world. Let’s look at that Johannine passage again: “I pray not only for them, but ... that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.” He prays that the world would know that the Father sent his Son.
Your claim above suggested that the two options are eternal-Hell or annihilationism. That doesn’t accurately reflect the church’s debate on this issue. Annihilationism is an also-ran on this topic with little historical adherence. The options that have had the widest support in the history of the church up to today have been (1) St Augustine’s vision eternal-Hell and (2) St Gregory of Nyssa’s vision of a restoration of all things.
This entire thread is designed to expose us to what appears to be Pauline universal language. But it isn’t just 1 Cor 15. It’s everywhere in St Paul’s writings. See also: Romans 11:32, 1 Timothy 2:1-5, 1 Timothy 4:10, Titus 2:11, Colossians 1:20, Ephesians 1:10, 2 Corinthians 5:14ff, Romans 14:7-9, Romans 5:12-21, etc, etc. And this doesn’t even get into St Peter’s or St John’s epistles.
My main function in this thread is to not allow anyone to go unopposed in the simplistic (and deeply mistaken) belief that eternal-Hell is obviously taught in the NT. If anything, it’s a mixed message.
We all stand under judgment. That NT message is very clear. But whether all will eventually return to God or whether some will be eternally separated isn’t at all clear. There are verses and passages that support each view. It’s ambiguous. In my experience, universalists downplay the gospels and the book of Revelation, which employ future-separation language. And infernalists (eternal-Hell believers) downplay the NT epistles, which employ universalist language.
For all you know, this is hyperbole used to emphasize a larger point. A wise person would be very cautious when attempting to use apocalyptic literature to support her theological opinions.
To those who are victorious.This is just one more scripture that seems to say all will be saved,
"I will make ALL things new"
"I will reconcile ALL things to myself."
"Every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
And in light of that,
"If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart Jesus Christ is Lord, you will be saved."...
Among many others.
But Jesus also warns repeatedly of an eternal hell.
So, I keep coming back to the question, will Jesus save people out of hell too?
Maybe, maybe not. Apparently we are not meant to know down here.
But if He does, all those seemingly contradictory scriptures will suddenly make sense.
Maybe hell is eternal but people's stay there is not. I do not know.
But from what we do know about hell, it is clear, no one would want to go there for even a minute, much less years, so better to accept the truth now.
Yes it is in the book of Revelation. So?
The scripture states everlasting.
I showed you the place prepared by God for the Devil and His angels and those who refuse to believe and do evil. The lake of fire
I know, but that does not explain the scriptures that seem to say all will be saved.To those who are victorious.
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
So, I keep coming back to the question, will Jesus save people out of hell too?
Maybe hell is eternal but people's stay there is not.
I don't recall quoting Augustine.So, exactly what I said above. A wise person would be very cautious to try to build a theology off of apocalyptic literature which is necessarily full of symbolism.
Your English translation says “everlasting” or “eternal.” Presumably, you are not reading the original Greek, which uses the word aionios, which does not necessitate the meaning of eternal, according to Greek scholars I’ve read. It can just as easily mean an indefinite period of time, as in “an age.”
Furthermore, your English translation (whether or not you’re aware of this) has been influenced by the theology of St Augustine. St Jerome, who gave the Western world a major and influential translation of the Greek NT into Latin, corresponded with and was influenced by St Augustine. And the entire history of the church in the West (Catholic and Reformers) has lived under the long shadow of St Augustine who, as I’ve said, was the major proponent of eternal-Hell among the church fathers. So the gospels and Revelation have the influence of St Augustine underlying our English translations today. This is all just historical data, and we’re living in the wake of it.
Uh-huh. And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire too, right? So this lake/marsh of fire is some sort of a meta-Hell where bad people, death and even Hades itself all just get to swim around, burning unendingly? Ok then, I’d say that’s about as clear as mud.
You believe in a resurrection from Hell to this earth?Sure, this is an option that actually many of the brightest minds of the church have held throughout the centuries—a finite Hell. On this view, Hell is just as real and terrible as St Augustine envisions, but there’s a possibility of parole and/or the “sentence” imposed by the Judge is not for eternity.
I know, but that does not explain the scriptures that seem to say all will be saved.
We can go tit for tat on scripture, but I'd rather not argue on what is unclear to me.
I'm just saying there are valid points, in scripture itself, for both sides.
I don't recall quoting Augustine
You believe in a resurrection from Hell to this earth?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?