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When a believer commits a sin

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Christownsme

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Uhh, word: you're wrong. You speak as a Pharisee. You don't see the bigger picture of God's love for all mankind. That's ridiculous that only Jews will be saved. If Jesus himself would appear to you, you'd reject him because he was spoken of before Abraham. And Abraham was not a Jew but an idolator heathen who put his trust in God by going to Egypt. God then set up the Jewish nation later so that the NATIONS OF THE WORLD WOULD BE BLESSED BY THEM. So that they could be a light and usher in the Messiah for the whole world to decide where they want to spend eternity. But like Paul said, and you prove it, you feel exclusive and Jesus blood was not for the whole world's sins. You make a grave error in judgment. You are incorrect, sir.
 
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See how when you speak you don't bring out any scripture, and I aint a pharisee, I'm a learned man. You should know Abraham was a Son of God, so was Isaac:

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

There were sons of god around from the time of the garden of eden, and the line carried down through Adam and Seth through to Noah and Shem and then through Shem to Abraham, that's why abraham was righteous and why the most high found favour in abraham. Also after he destroyed the sons of god in the flood before he needed to bring them back as a nation which was when israel was set up. So no Abraham was not an idolator or a heathen. And he didn't set up the nation of israel to be the light of the whole world, find me that in scripture.

He set them up to be his people, this is what he thinks of other nations:

Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations [are] as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

The nations are a drop as a bucket, when you have a bucket and you spill a small drop do you care? No, it's the same for the most high. If you're weighing something on scales and a bit of dust remains do you care? No, that's how the most high feels about nations other than israel. The most high is only dealing with israel:

Psa 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
Psa 147:20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and [as for his] judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

So you can't understand the bible which is why you're bucking up against the scriptures. The most high aint dealing with other nations man. Also:

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

I don't care if you don't believe man, you can't make the truth of the most high into a lie. Man romans 9 just kills off all thought that anyone other than israel has any part in the bible:

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

So the adoption of christ, the glory which is the kingdom of heaven and the new and old covenants are only with israelites, same for the law, the service of god and the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Rom 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

So Christ only came for Israelites.

Where does everyone else fit in?
 
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patience7

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I'll attempt to work thru the scriptures the best I can to back my hearing of the Holy Spirit up:

When I commit a sin, (I John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.) I think the first person on the scene is the Holy Spirit, although I may not realize it at first. The Holy Spirit prays for me in utterances too deep for words. I believe He prays during and after I commit a sin as a believer. (Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our imfirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.) And already in my heart I have a sense that

"Hey, what I'm doing is either wrong or it doesn't feel right. I don't want to sin against God. That's not my intent here. But I chose to give into my lust."

(Romans 7:15-25 read for yourself)

Right after this positive movement of the Holy Spirit, the devil may come in and condemn me. (I Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour) He tells me God is angry with me, and that this is the guilt given to me from God. (I Peter 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.)

Wow. I've got to choose life here at this point. (I John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.)I either accept the forgiveness I know is mine thru Christ Jesus, (I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.) pray my weaknesses to Him, (I Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.) and reconcile my relationship thru speaking truth to myself against the devil's lies, (Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked) or just go on sulking in the devil's game. (I Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.)

It's so easy to fall prey to Satan, but I believe that as we believe God's promises in the good times, we can depend on His promises in the bad times.
(Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him; but I will maintain mine own ways before him.)

I agree!
 
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patience7

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I was waiting for the life saver, John 3:16, lemme burst that bubble. You should know in the greek new testament that the english translation comes from there are 3 words for world, one is aiōn which is used of the endlessness of time and how the world is without end. oikoumenē which is used of the whole world and kosmos which is used of an arrangement or select group. The word there for world in john 3:16 is kosmos, and the arrangement or select group it's talking about is obviously israel, if so why would christ say:

Jhn 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

and also:

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Obviously god doesn't love the whole world, and neither did jesus die for their sins:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Key word being his people, because jesus was an israelite from the tribe of judah, in the holy line of david.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel

Saul/Paul was chosen to go unto the Gentiles. .

Acts 10:28 . . .but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean v34). . . of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: v45). . . because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So the Gentiles also received salvation.

Acts 11:1 and the apostles and brethren that were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
v17) Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I that I could withstand God? v18). . .Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
 
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John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel

Saul/Paul was chosen to go unto the Gentiles. .

Acts 10:28 . . .but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean v34). . . of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: v45). . . because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So the Gentiles also received salvation.

Acts 11:1 and the apostles and brethren that were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
v17) Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I that I could withstand God? v18). . .Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

First off, Acts 10:28 is talking about the israelite foreigners and the jews that were in jerusalem, they're the two beasts that were mentioned in that vision.

The gentiles mentioned in v45 also are israelite foreigners.

Acts 9:15 is a hendiatris, the gentiles, kings and children of israel are talking about the same people, hence the gentiles are israelite foreigners.

Paul was sent to the israelite foreigners read romans 9, the whole chapter.

The gentiles in v17 and 18 are also israelite foreigners.

You don't know the scriptures.
 
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Christownsme

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See how when you speak you don't bring out any scripture,

The Holy Spirit speaks to me and I say what He says.

and I aint a pharisee,

I said you speak as a Pharisee

I'm a learned man.

Learned in trying to deceive Christians?

You should know Abraham was a Son of God,

Joshua 24:2-3
And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: AND THEY SERVED OTHER GODS.

And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.




so was Isaac:

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

There were sons of god around from the time of the garden of eden, and the line carried down through Adam and Seth through to Noah and Shem and then through Shem to Abraham, that's why abraham was righteous and why the most high found favour in abraham.

Wrong. Romans 4:21-22 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Wrap your understanding around God's promise:

Romans 4:13-17 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath, for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the see, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made thee a father OF MANY NATIONS before him whom he belived, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which be not as though they were.



Also after he destroyed the sons of god in the flood before he needed to bring them back as a nation which was when israel was set up. So no Abraham was not an idolator or a heathen. And he didn't set up the nation of israel to be the light of the whole world, find me that in scripture.

He set them up to be his people, this is what he thinks of other nations:

Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations [are] as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

What God has said doesn't mean he thinks of the nations less in His heart. A drop in the bucket is compared to the seed by faith.

The nations are a drop as a bucket, when you have a bucket and you spill a small drop do you care? No, it's the same for the most high. If you're weighing something on scales and a bit of dust remains do you care? No, that's how the most high feels about nations other than israel. The most high is only dealing with israel:

Psa 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
Psa 147:20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and [as for his] judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

He has not dealt so with any nation because he wanted to sanctify Israel so they may be a light unto the Gentiles, not just the foreign Isrealite Gentiles. By the way, show me where God speaks to just regular nation Gentiles and foreign Isrealite Gentiles separately.

So you can't understand the bible which is why you're bucking up against the scriptures.

I'm not bucking up against any scripture. Sounds like you are.


The most high aint dealing with other nations man.


Jesus already has. His sacrifice is for all mankind.

Come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Also:

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

I don't care if you don't believe man, you can't make the truth of the most high into a lie. Man romans 9 just kills off all thought that anyone other than israel has any part in the bible:

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

But since the Israelites had hardened hearts, Paul knew his commission:

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go they way; for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles* and kings** and the children of Israel.

*Gentiles means non-Jewish heathen nation in the Greek
**kings referenced to King Caeser,, Agrippa, Festus, & Bernice, none of which were Jewish foreigners or Jews


So the adoption of christ, the glory which is the kingdom of heaven and the new and old covenants are only with israelites, same for the law, the service of god and the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Rom 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

So Christ only came for Israelites.

Christ came for sinners. I'll challenge you to look that one up yourself.

Where does everyone else fit in?

Not in your backyard, evidently. You are a liar. It's evident to every Christian here. The Holy Spirit discerns this for us. Very easily, infact.
 
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Andy S. Wright

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I must've missed the scripture that teaches the attack first, ask questions later, philosophy of heresy hunting. I recommend popping the pin on the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. Don't forget to count to three before throwing it so that with it God may blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in his mersay...
 
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holyrokker

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Sin stems from within a person. It's born in one's preference for pleasure over what is right.

We can never overcome sin by focusing on the individual act. The only victory over sin is through constant surrender to the Holy Spirit. As David said:

Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.
 
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Andy S. Wright

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Well, I have seen some pretty amazing feats of linguistic and translative contortions in my day but teaching that only Jews can sin because they were the only nation given the law and are therefore the only people on the planet who qualify for salvation definately makes my personal top five ridiculous exegesis attempts list. I especially love the bold-faced accusation that anyone who does not agree with this conclusion does not know their bible. That is some seriously thick arrogance; you could drizzle it on pancakes. Yummy.
 
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patience7

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1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

First off, Acts 10:28 is talking about the israelite foreigners and the jews that were in jerusalem, they're the two beasts that were mentioned in that vision.

The gentiles mentioned in v45 also are israelite foreigners.

Acts 9:15 is a hendiatris, the gentiles, kings and children of israel are talking about the same people, hence the gentiles are israelite foreigners.

Paul was sent to the israelite foreigners read romans 9, the whole chapter.

The gentiles in v17 and 18 are also israelite foreigners.

You don't know the scriptures.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:28, 29 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, the Gentiles also:

Gentiles were foreign nations not worshipping the true God, considered pagans which would make them Greek which embraces all nations that are not Jews.

Galatians 3:27, 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is call the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without god in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
v19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
 
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Jerushabelle

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1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

From the American King James Version regarding God's governmental ordinance for the church and worship instructions. Are we in church? No. Are you wearing a hat? Hope not. Is my head covered? Nope. We're not in church.
 
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The Templar

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1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

First off, Acts 10:28 is talking about the israelite foreigners and the jews that were in jerusalem, they're the two beasts that were mentioned in that vision.

The gentiles mentioned in v45 also are israelite foreigners.

Acts 9:15 is a hendiatris, the gentiles, kings and children of israel are talking about the same people, hence the gentiles are israelite foreigners.

Paul was sent to the israelite foreigners read romans 9, the whole chapter.

The gentiles in v17 and 18 are also israelite foreigners.

You don't know the scriptures.

The purpose of any "Christian Message Board" is for the exchange of ideas and the sharing of our faith in a safe environment away from those who would senselessly attack and abuse us for our faith.
To address your comments:

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Act 9:15 εἶπε δὲ πρὸς αὐτὸν ὁ Κύριος· πορεύου,
ὅτι σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς μοί ἐστιν οὗτος τοῦ βαστάσαι
τὸ ὄνομά μου ἐνώπιον ἐθνῶν καὶ βασιλέων υἱῶν τε ᾿Ισραήλ·


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The key to the question of to whom Yeshua was sending Paul out to preach is held in the following:[/FONT]


εθνων[FONT=Georgia, serif]G1484[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] N-GPN [/FONT]και[FONT=Georgia, serif]G2532[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] CONJ [/FONT]βασιλεων[FONT=Georgia, serif]G935[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] N-GPM [/FONT]υιων[FONT=Georgia, serif]G5207[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] N-GPM [/FONT]τε[FONT=Georgia, serif]G5037[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] PRT [/FONT]ισραηλ[FONT=Georgia, serif]G2474[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] N-PRI [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Strong's Numbering shows the definitions of these words as:[/FONT]


εθνων[FONT=Georgia, serif]G1484[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] N-GPN [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Probably from [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G1486[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]race[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (as of the same [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]habit[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]), that is, a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]tribe[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; specifically a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]foreign[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] ([/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]non-Jewish[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]) one (usually by implication [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]pagan[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.[/FONT]


και[FONT=Georgia, serif]G2532[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] CONJ[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Apparently a primary particle, having a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]copulative[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] and sometimes also a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]cumulative[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] force; [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]and[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]also[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]even[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]so[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]then[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]too[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.[/FONT]
βασιλεων[FONT=Georgia, serif]G935[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] N-GPM[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Probably from [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G939[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (through the notion of a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]foundation[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] of power); a [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]sovereign[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (abstractly, relatively or figuratively): - king.[/FONT]


υιων[FONT=Georgia, serif]G5207[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] N-GPM[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Apparently a primary word; a “son” (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.[/FONT]


τε[FONT=Georgia, serif]G5037[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] PRT[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]A primary particle (enclitic) of connection or addition; [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]both[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] or [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]also[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (properly as a correlation of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]G2532[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]): - also, and, both, even, then whether. Often used in compounds, usually as the latter part.[/FONT]


ισραηλ[FONT=Georgia, serif]G2474[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] N-PRI[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Of Hebrew origin [[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]H3478[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]]; [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Israel[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] (that is, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Jisrael[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]), the adopted name of Jacob, including his descendants (literally or figuratively): - Israel.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, when the proper context is restored from the Greek we can all see that Paul was definitely sent out to the “Non-Jews” along with their kings and the children of Israel.[/FONT]

Please consider this when deciding who salvation is for, to whom The Good News is to be shared with and who is held responsible for their actions(ie. SIN).

Also consider God's Holy Words:

For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe, who executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and who loves the strangers, providing them with food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 10:17-19 NRSV

Rejoice before the Lord your God—you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female slaves, the Levites resident in your towns, as well as the strangers, the orphans, and the widows who are among you—at the place that the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his name. Deuteronomy 16:11 NRSV

If an alien who resides with you wants to celebrate the passover to the Lord, all his males shall be circumcised; then he may draw near to celebrate it; he shall be regarded as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it; there shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you. Exodus 12:48-49 NRSV

One Law.
For who?
These verses are not speaking of Israelites at all,
as Israel did not exist yet!
Whenever Scripture mentions "strangers" or "Gentiles" they are not speaking of the wayward Hebrews, they are speaking of the Non-Hebrew! This is verified by the Hebrew/Greek manuscripts.
And who said someone didn't know their Scripture?
[/FONT]
 
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Christownsme

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I know I couldn't have said it any better!! Why is he concerned about my belief anyway when I'm nothing to God in his eyes anyway? Weird.

In fact, he's preaching another gospel, which isn't the Gospel at all. We all know what Paul said about individuals such as these... that even if they be angels preaching a different gospel, or individuals, they are to be accursed.

So I'm not wasting any more of my time worrying about changing his mind.
 
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The Templar

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Aren't we all sinners and as nothing in God's eyes,
unless He looks at us through the eyes of Yeshua?

"But now, irrespective of law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus."
Romans 3:21-26 NRSV


 
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