Wheaton Christian College teaches evolution

[theyre here]

http://www.wheaton.edu/

I'm currently watching a PBS special on a group of Wheaton conservative Christian students having difficulty coming to terms with the “obvious evidence” for evolution being covered in their biology and chemistry degree programs.

These kids are discovering the misinformation of their upbringing, and have some serious issues with their beliefs (some have even said they feel betrayed). Here we have stout creationists, examining the fossil and genetic record on their own, learning science, and coming to the conclusion there is overwhelming evidence in favor of evolution. Even to the point of defining dozens of “transitional” species creationists teach don’t exist.

 

[LouisBooth]

umm...so? a few people I know used to believe in it until they proper examined the evidence in a public school..so what's your point? That people change..yes, I agree.

 

[seebs]

The point is, there's no examples of people who genuinely studied the science and concluded that evolutionary theory was a bad thing. There's lots of people who stumbled across a list of "hard questions" like the ones posted here a while back ("Which came first, the insects or the plants they pollinate", for instance), and concluded that, since *they* didn't know of answers, there must not be answers.

I have never seen a single credible claim of someone really studying the field and moving from evolution towards creationism.

 

[RufusAtticus]

I think there are some people (Kurt Wise comes to mind) who genuinely studied science, but for religious reasons chose to reject evolution. As such, their complaints about science are not compelling.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

I can understand how they feel betrayed. When I became a Christian in my teen age years I was handed loads of creationist papers and disguarded my belief in evolution. I thought that since they were Christians too there was no way they could lie to a fellow believer. Even when I started college I still held on to my creationist views. Then I started to doubt when a biology proffesor I knew to be a good Christian to laughed at a few of my creationist ideas when we were talking. I was troubled by this and started to look into things for myself. While evolution is far from an absolute certanty it is what the evidence points to. I felt bitter because I had been lied to, intentionaly or not by those I had trusted. I almost lost every shred of faith I had, I thought to myself"How can I believe in Jesus if his followers can be so blind and lie so much?". It took years to rebuild a relationship with Jesus again. And the worst thing is the sickening feeling I get when I think of how many people I turned away from Christ when I talked about how science was wrong when I should have been focusing on other areas in my witnessing. Like Randman, LouisBooth and Nepretely in here I was so sure I was right and the world was wrong I called people fools when all along I was the fool.

 

[theyre here]

Wow, LewisWildermuth, thank you for sharing that. I really am glad that you reconciled your faith. While atheist, I don't ever want to detract a person from their chosen faith.

I have very similar stories of my youth and issues with what I had been told about science, as well as other religions. In my case, obviously, the end result is different than yours.

Fear is the mind killer, tolerance is the emancipator.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
"How can I believe in Jesus if his followers can be so blind and lie so much?".

I always though this quote from St. Augustine of Hippo summed up the matter quite nicely:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from knowledge and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. . . . Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.

 

[tycho]

a few people I know used to believe in it until they proper examined the evidence in a public school..so what's your point?

Ah, public schools. There's nothing quite like learning from someone who little to no grasp on a subject & is reading from an outdated textbook. Sadly, my Catholic grade school education was worse in that aspect than my public high school experience. Some private schools just don't have the cash that public school officials claim they do.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I think LewisWildermuth's testimony is an example of why we must keep CvE debates in perspective.

1. We recognize that honest people interpret the evidence in different ways, and
2. It is not a salvation issue.

I think making a big deal about CvE in Christendom creates a stumbling block to salvation.

Indeed, an evolutionary view may color how we interpret parts of scripture. Nevertheless, I've yet to run across an interpretation that challenges my faith in who God really is.

LiveFreeOrDie, I really like your quote, particularly this part

Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.

{Emphasis Added}

 

[LouisBooth]

"The point is, there's no examples of people who genuinely studied the science and concluded that evolutionary theory was a bad thing. "

Umm...seebs..yes their are....just because its not on the web its not there??

 

[Starscream]

Umm...seebs..yes their are....just because its not on the web its not there??

That may be the case, by I certainly haven't seen an examples. Care to share some with us?

 

[LouisBooth]

"That may be the case, by I certainly haven't seen an examples. Care to share some with us?"

As with most things that form your opionions (sp) they are personal. Friends past and present fall into this catagory, most of which have a bacholars or higher.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

And thus Louis Booth jumps in and says something and gets defensive when asked to provide any evidence for it what so ever.

This is why I get mad at you Louis, no one likes hit and run attackers.

 

[LouisBooth]

No, I said my evidence is personal. I listed my friends. I'm not about to do some flipit search on the web and list a site where he switched and I don't know him or her. That's not honest.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Where did you list your friends? What areas do they have degrees in?

I have friends who are Atheist, Hindi, LDS, Baptist, Agnostic, Wiccan, Buddist, Shinto, add infinitum. Because I have friends that belive just about everything and many have had college courses and degrees does that make them right in every or any opinion they might have? Nope, especialy a theological idea that cannot be proven any other way than personal experiance.

 

[theyre here]

Originally posted by LouisBooth

Umm...seebs..yes their are....just because its not on the web its not there??

If they're not on the web, could you please provide bibliographical reference?

I spent some time searching on this topic about 5 years ago and came up empty (except for Chrisitans who already had predefined views of creation).

 

[LouisBooth]

"Where did you list your friends? What areas do they have degrees in? "

I'm not going to list my friends on here for reasons you should know. The degrees are mostly undergrad level and come from all fields, applied math, physics, biology, english, communications, chem, biochem, Molecular bio...The masters are in a science related field athough not (I'm pretty sure anyway) in the biology field.

 

[seebs]

All it would take is for one of these people who's seriously studied the science to start a web page. Sure is odd that there's so many creation "science" web pages, none of which have any scientists.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Sure is odd that there's so many creation "science" web pages, none of which have any scientists."

*sigh* false statement. What's really kinda funny to me is that most people here arguing aren't scientists, you for example seebs but that's beside the point. There are a few "scientists" here that work in the science field on both sides.

 

[seebs]

Hmm. So, why has no one yet pointed to a single creationist with a M.S. in biology?

I can't think of a single real scientist who believes in creationism. The closest I've seen so far is a guy with a mail-order (not correspondence; *mail-order*) diploma in "Christian Education".

Certainly, no biologists anyone's been able to name - and surely, by now, there'd be some.