• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

What's wrong with racism?

2PhiloVoid

It's Metropolis! Enjoy the stay!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,649
12,137
Space Mountain!
✟1,469,126.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How many Canaanites did God say should be allowed to live?

Are you referring to the ancestors of the people spoken about in the following verses? I'm asking because I just want us to be on the same page before we delve into the depths ...

1 Kings 9:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 all the storage cities that Solomon had, cities for his chariots and cities for his cavalry, and whatever Solomon desired to build in Jerusalem, in Lebanon, and in all the land of his dominion.

20 All the people who were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, who were not of the children of Israel— 21 that is, their descendants who were left in the land after them, whom the children of Israel had not been able to destroy completely—from these Solomon raised forced labor, as it is to this day.​
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟73,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Are you referring to the ancestors of the people spoken about in the following verses? I'm asking because I just want us to be on the same page before we delve into the depths ...

1 Kings 9:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 all the storage cities that Solomon had, cities for his chariots and cities for his cavalry, and whatever Solomon desired to build in Jerusalem, in Lebanon, and in all the land of his dominion.

20 All the people who were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, who were not of the children of Israel— 21 that is, their descendants who were left in the land after them, whom the children of Israel had not been able to destroy completely—from these Solomon raised forced labor, as it is to this day.​

Sure.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

It's Metropolis! Enjoy the stay!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,649
12,137
Space Mountain!
✟1,469,126.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Sure? Yes, it's always good to be Sure, isn't it?

IDShot_540x540.jpg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

It's Metropolis! Enjoy the stay!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,649
12,137
Space Mountain!
✟1,469,126.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How many Canaanites did God say should be allowed to live?

Now that we're "Sure" we're on the same page, I guess I'll take a crack at answering your question.

Let's see now, if I quote and cite the following verses, it seems we'll have our answer, but I better do this by lifting them out of their fuller contexts and by truncating them so that we don't have to own up to the fact that there are other implications folded over into, and built within, the meaning structures of the overall message. So, here's three to start off with which should suffice us in an immediate way:

Exodus 23:24
... but you shall utterly overthrow them [Canaanites]...

Deuteronomy 7:2
...and when the Lord your God delivers them [Canaanites] over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them.

Deuteronomy 7:16
And you shall destroy all the peoples [Canaanites] whom the Lord your God delivers over to you; your eye shall have no pity on them...​

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like God and Moses are saying that ..."none" ... of the Canaanites should be allowed to live. Ok. Now what? Are you going to show that this somehow ties into your accusations about racism on the part of Yahweh? Or, are we going to get sidetracked on some other rabbit-hole that you feel you'd like us to go down, JGG? To some extent, I wouldn't blame you for wanting to sidetrack since it looks like this thing is just bleeding with ethical issues.

:cool:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟73,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Now that we're "Sure" we're on the same page, I guess I'll take a crack at answering your question.

Let's see now, if I quote and cite the following verses, it seems we'll have our answer, but I better do this by lifting them out of their fuller contexts and by truncating them so that we don't have to own up to the fact that there are other implications folded over into, and built within, the meaning structures of the overall message. So, here's three to start off with which should suffice us in an immediate way:

Exodus 23:24
... but you shall utterly overthrow them [Canaanites]...

Deuteronomy 7:2
...and when the Lord your God delivers them [Canaanites] over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them.

Deuteronomy 7:16
And you shall destroy all the peoples [Canaanites] whom the Lord your God delivers over to you; your eye shall have no pity on them...​

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like God and Moses are saying that ..."none" ... of the Canaanites should be allowed to live. Ok. Now what? Are you going to show that this somehow ties into your accusations about racism on the part of Yahweh? Or, are we going to get sidetracked on some other rabbit-hole that you feel you'd like us to go down, JGG? To some extent, I wouldn't blame you for wanting to sidetrack since it looks like this thing is just bleeding with ethical issues.

:cool:

I'm pretty content with that. I think that makes the case that Bible claims that members of a given race all share the same attributes. Which is racism.

So what's wrong with racism?
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟73,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Let me put it this way:

"We should endeavor to evaluate each person on their own merits. On their own assets. They should be measured by their own actions, behavior, beliefs, and character, not our perceptions of their race, tribe, or nationality."

True statement, or not?
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

It's Metropolis! Enjoy the stay!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,649
12,137
Space Mountain!
✟1,469,126.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm pretty content with that. I think that makes the case that Bible claims that members of a given race all share the same attributes. Which is racism.
Which is racism? By whose definition? As one who has taken more than my share of "diversity" and "social philosophy" classes, I think your definition is bit on the simplistic side.

So what's wrong with racism?
Well, we need to have the final word on what racism actually is before we can ask what's wrong with it. So.............who is the super-duper definer of all of this? You? Me? Today's run-of-the-mill Humanist? Anyone?

[Why am I asking all of these questions? Is it because I think you're unintelligent? No. We all know JGG has a good mind; I'm just interested in helping you use it to its maximum potential ;)]
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟73,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Which is racism? By whose definition? As one who has taken more than my share of "diversity" and "social philosophy" classes, I think your definition is bit on the simplistic side.

Well, we need to have the final word on what racism actually is before we can ask what's wrong with it. So.............who is the super-duper definer of all of this? You? Me? Today's run-of-the-mill Humanist? Anyone?

[Why am I asking all of these questions? Is it because I think you're unintelligent? No. We all know JGG has a good mind; I'm just interested in helping you use it to its maximum potential ;)]

I'm using Merriam-Webster. Particularly the first one as it is the underlying concept of all racism. Your race determines your attributes.

Definition of racism
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles: a political or social system founded on racism
: racial prejudice or discrimination
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,070.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How many Canaanites did God say should be allowed to live?
Since when was Canaanite a race? They were Caucasians.
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟73,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Since when was Canaanite a race? They were Caucasians.

They were European, or part of the larger caucasian taxon that included Caucusus region, Europe, parts of Asia, and parts of Africa?

It's especially strange as someone else insisted they were Semitic.
 
Upvote 0

Stormy

Senior Contributor
Jun 16, 2002
9,441
868
St. Louis, Mo
Visit site
✟67,254.00
Faith
Christian
Politics
US-Others
Some people may be racist. Not sure why.. Maybe upbring or experiences?

Racism is not confined to whites. Many blacks are racist. But its ok for them. Its also ok for all the other races..Indian, Muslim, blacks, whatever...except for whites.

Don't believe me?

Try saying this sentence and inserting all the different races in it. Then tell me which statement is racist.

I love being a " " american

The real racism comes in the fact that whites who love their race are automatically labeled as racist.
 
Upvote 0

zelosravioli

Believer
Site Supporter
Mar 15, 2014
509
200
Northern California
✟231,357.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
It is arguably true that 'being human'
"... is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities. And that racial differences that produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" (JGG #168)

The Mosaic/Christian view is: 'all humans' are sinful/capable of sin and evil'.
That said: (freewill grants that) 'all humans are capable of choosing right or wrong behavior'. Granted doing 'good' is harder for some than others.

Why? Sure, generational biological effects may pre-determine a persons ability to do good. And biology may pre-determine a persons ability to accept or resist change.

But it seems an easy observation: that an human individuals immediate (not biological past) culture has a 'much' much greater influence on their behavior than their biological past/ environment.

That said: it seems an easy observation: that an human individuals character should not be judged upon neither their biological past/ environment (race).

Does that mean that their current culture environment has pre disposed/determined their future actions? The Christian view is that all humans are capable of choosing right or wrong behavior, despite their past. The Mosaic system had a system of repentance and change that goes as far as a strict moral pledge - hence pledging oneself to the Mosaic Law - putting oneself under the Law to abide in morality. Mosaic scriptures teach a sense of general righteousness available to all humans (i.e. Able, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham etc), but scripture 'warns' of mans general susceptibility/easily overcome by; unkind, immoral, even barbarous behaviors.

That said: Mosaic law/scripture also teaches that 'because of sin' God Himself felt He would destroy sinners - and He does as in the Canaanite, Amalekites, threatens the Ninevites, Korah etc. (note that God also destroys/pronounces judgments on the Israelites, more so) And as God said He would destroy all (most) humans - and He does, as in the flood account.

Thus God pronounces death upon sinners. Thus, cultures that practice such grievous sins that are not fitting, according to God, they should not continue to live on 'His' Earth.

The Mosaic scriptures also foretell of a future where God offers a solution to human behavior (and ultimately corrects). And the Mosaic God offers a solution that takes into account freewill, personalities, and possibly biological differences - in the idea of His own sacrifice for human sin, as foretold in the story of Issac and Abraham.

That said: Mosaic law/scripture also teaches that through one righteous man, generate a new breed of humans - these Mosaic stories then are types foretelling Gods plan i.e. Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, David, etc.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

It's Metropolis! Enjoy the stay!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,649
12,137
Space Mountain!
✟1,469,126.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm using Merriam-Webster. Particularly the first one as it is the underlying concept of all racism. Your race determines your attributes.

Definition of racism
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles: a political or social system founded on racism
: racial prejudice or discrimination

Well, obviously, I don't personally believe any of that racism garbage, whether from an "extremist," Aryan Superiority kind of Biblical perspective (or really mis-respresentation) or a Biological viewpoint. If this weren't the case, and I was some flagrant racist bigot, I wouldn't have voted for Obama in his first term. :cool:

Then, there's also the fact that Merriam Webster simply "reports" to the public what the common usage is of the various words/terms that it lists. So, we're under no compunction to take Merriam-Webster as the last word on anything. Anyway, as to the biblical issues involving the Canaanites, if we remove the interpretive constraints which I mentioned previously in connection to the full contexts in which we find these ancient texts embedded, then I think we'll start to run into some major ontological issues that impede our modern ethical intuitions.

For instance, if Hitler's Blitzkrieg forces invaded Poland, and suddenly the Jews there, yet quite defenseless, took up their garden hoes and attacked the invading Nazi tanks and solidiers, and wiped the invading Nazi forces off the face of the map, I wonder........would we be griping that they had done so? Well, this is basically what happened in the O.T. ....But we still complain today that the Canaanites are displaced so extensively in the O.T. literature (and whether or not it even happened or not, we complain).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Almost there

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,571
1,152
61
Kentucky
✟52,042.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But it's more than just skin. It's ethnicity and culture. What if one race, skin, and culture really is better than all the rest?
Actually there is some truth to that regarding specific skills. Either that or the NBA is racist against white people.
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟73,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Well, obviously, I don't personally believe any of that racism garbage, whether from an "extremist," Aryan Superiority kind of Biblical perspective (or really mis-respresentation) or a Biological viewpoint. If this weren't the case, and I was some flagrant racist bigot, I wouldn't have voted for Obama in his first term. :cool:

I can't find my confused head-tilt smiley.

Then, there's also the fact that Merriam Webster simply "reports" to the public what the common usage is of the various words/terms that it lists. So, we're under no compunction to take Merriam-Webster as the last word on anything.

In this case they're trying to summarize a very complex sociological concept. Most in-depth definitions would be much longer, convoluted and would require a subscrption.

What definition would you like to use?

Anyway, as to the biblical issues involving the Canaanites, if we remove the interpretive constraints which I mentioned previously in connection to the full contexts in which we find these ancient texts embedded, then I think we'll start to run into some major ontological issues that impede our modern ethical intuitions.

For instance, if Hitler's Blitzkrieg forces invaded Poland, and suddenly the Jews there, yet quite defenseless, took up their garden hoes and attacked the invading Nazi tanks and solidiers, and wiped the invading Nazi forces off the face of the map, I wonder........would we be griping that they had done so? Well, this is basically what happened in the O.T. ....But we still complain today that the Canaanites are displaced so extensively in the O.T. literature (and whether or not it even happened or not, we complain).

I think you're still missing point. If the Bible said that the Canaanites are evil, violent, and morally deprived and said nothing more about them, my point would still be the same.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

It's Metropolis! Enjoy the stay!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,649
12,137
Space Mountain!
✟1,469,126.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I can't find my confused head-tilt smiley.
Ok. Let me reiterate:
1) I think racism isn't supported by either the Bible OR by modern biology; moreover, I don't perceive that disliking other people simply because they are slightly different than me is any kind of a good reason to fight against them. If other people are majorly different than me in some important moral way (say, for instance, they're really very much like Hitler), then I might see a reason for fighting against them. And I might fight them, even if not for myself, If I sense the need to do so for the loving protection of my family.

2) There is an "Aryan Nations" interpretation of the Bible that is somewhat militant and not completely compatible with mainstream, traditional Christian faith; and we can see this militant kind of pseudo-faith being held had by members of groups like the Klu Klux Klan, Christian Identity cults, and maybe some Neo-Nazis. These people are are dead wrong in their theology, and I'd say they are also in need of some major overhauls in their applications and understanding of hermeneutics. If they fail to do so, I'm under the impression that they won't be gaining Eternal Life with Christ.

3) I'm not a racist, AND I'm still a Christian. In fact, ever since I first became a Christian and I read through the entire Bible that first year of my faith many moons ago (like 30 moons ago, or so), I never came away from my reading that the Canaanites were victims of prejudice or racism. No, they had some very dysfunctional elements in their societies, elements that I wouldn't personally apply the term "culture" to.

4) Yes, I voted for Obama. I thought that at the first, he made the better candidate. And I think he turned out to be a somewhat dignified president, more so than we've seen in some of the guys we've had as president over the past, say, 25 years or so. However, I'm not Democrat, and I'm not Republican.

In this case they're trying to summarize a very complex sociological concept. Most in-depth definitions would be much longer, convoluted and would require a subscrption.
Yes. I realize that much of it. You are talking to someone who has a degree in philosophy, part of which included Analytic Philosophy which has to do with scrutinizing the use and meaning of language itself.

What definition would you like to use?
I don't rely on just one, although as a Christian, I'm going to lean toward one that in some way incorporates all that 'jive' that Paul said about there being, in Jesus Christ, "no Greek, no Jew, no circumcised, no uncircumcised, no barbarian, no cultured, no slave, and no free." But this kind of approach can only come for those who are on the same wavelength by faith in Christ.

Of course, we have the additional contributions to consider for a definition of racism coming from advocates of various diversity groups, humanitarians, United Nation's workers, and even Humanists; all of this can be considered for whatever merits that these sociological and moral viewpoints may have. So, for instance, we may consider the ideas of an education and 'diversity advocate' such as Sonia Nieto (2004) who cites some independent views on racism which, together, infer that the racism we think of it today involves: 1) Distinctions made between people without recourse to consideration of actual merits [or lack thereof], 2) Stereotyping of others, 3) Institutional discrimination [as seen in unequally equipped schools], 4) the presence of a system of privilege and penalty based on belonging to a certain group, and 5) the false doctrine of White Supremacy. All of these (and a few more things, perhaps) can shape our respective views on racism, Nieto says (pp. 36-39). And I tend to agree with her general heuristic in attending to issues of racism today. However, what we find in the Bible is a different story ... and this is the case not just because it pertains to the social actions of Israelites/Jews who lived in the Middle East "long ago."

Moreover, there really is little genetic difference--and I mean very, very little genetic difference--biologically speaking between people of different ethnic groups. However, there are cultural differences, and some of those differences involve moral codes, and some of these lead to some serious disagreements between these same groups.

Reference
Nieto, Sonia. (2004). Affirming diversity: The sociopolitical context of multicultural education. Boston, MA: Pearson.


I think you're still missing point. If the Bible said that the Canaanites are evil, violent, and morally deprived and said nothing more about them, my point would still be the same.
If the Bible says that the Canaanites are evil, then your point is ONLY proven IF there is absolutely, and in no uncertain terms, NO HOLY, CREATOR GOD existing whatsoever as affirmed by the biblical writers. And I'm not going to assume there is no such god as this ... You can if you want to, but I see no reason to jump that far ahead.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zelosravioli

Believer
Site Supporter
Mar 15, 2014
509
200
Northern California
✟231,357.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
An individuals immediate 'culture' has a much greater influence on their behavior than their biological past / environments (race).

Therefore an individuals character should not be judged simply upon their 'biological' past/environment (race).

Yet still, the 'culture' one participates in, may lead another person to make a good guess (a true or false assumption) of the persons character.

And so race should not be the guide or a measurement of character, as even ones participation in a culture does not always define a persons character either.... although, it might...
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟73,445.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
If the Bible says that the Canaanites are evil, then your point is ONLY proven IF there is absolutely, and in no uncertain terms, NO HOLY, CREATOR GOD existing whatsoever as affirmed by the biblical writers. And I'm not going to assume there is no such god as this ... You can if you want to, but I see no reason to jump that far ahead.

Not at all. Frankly, I think we can agree, that the Bible is pretty clear in it's assertion that the Canaanites are evil. I'm assuming that whether there is a God or not, the Bible claims that God Himself says that racism, as we've defined it, is Godly. That God Himself uses race to determine the attributes of human beings. Canaanites, Hittites are all evil and deserve to die because of it.

So why is it wrong to assume that every member of a race share the same attributes? What's wrong with saying Jews are deceitful, or Africans are savages, and whites are power-hungry? The Bible tells us that Canaanites are evil and every single one of them deserved to die. Why was Hitler wrong to say that Jews were evil and every single one of them deserved to die?
 
Upvote 0