What's wrong with God being the author of sin?

larssc

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Why is there the insistence that man is a free moral agent and that God is not the author of sin?

From: The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination

"That the makers of the Westminster Confession recognized the freedom of man is plain; for immediately after declaring that "God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass," they added, "Yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

And:

God so governs the inward feelings, external environment, habits, desires, motives, etc., of men that they freely do what He purposes. This operation its inscrutable, but none the less real; and the mere fact that in our present state of knowledge we are not able fully to explain how this influence is exerted without destroying the free agency of man, certainly does not prove that it cannot be so exerted.

And:

An act is not free if determined from without; but it is free if rationally determined from within, and this is precisely what God's foreordination effects. The comprehensive decree provides that each man shall be a free agent, possessing a certain character, surrounded by a certain environment, subject to certain external influences, internally moved by certain affections, desires, habits, etc., and that in view of all these he shall freely and rationally make a choice. That the choice will be one thing and not another, is certain; and God, who knows and controls the exact causes of each influence, knows what that choice will be, and in a real sense determines it.

Why tiptoe around? Why so PC? To be palatable?
What's wrong with the Creator destroying and controlling people for his own good purpose? What's wrong with him hating and hardening the reprobate?
Could He do anything unjust, by definition?

Larry

Predestinarian Baptist (currently non communing PCA)
 

heymikey80

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Why is there the insistence that man is a free moral agent and that God is not the author of sin?
Largely because God has ordained liberty among men (cf. Jas 1:25, 2:12), and God does not write sin onto human hearts as a bare and unqualified force of His Spirit (Jas 1:13-14).

What God says He does not do, we should not contradict Him and say that He does. He has placed Himself apart from sin.

That placement does not remove Him from association. God intentionally brought sin into existence, and He is doing good with it -- that's not authorship of sin.

And human liberty, while it operates qualified on God's absolute omniscience and omnipotence, it is still liberty of action to us -- the ability of the will to accomplish what he desires with what God gives him.
 
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larssc

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From Vincent Cheung, The Author of Sin

on James 1:13

The verse is telling you that when you deal with temptation, you must directly address your lust, and not just blame God and then do nothing, or remain in your sin. Read all of James 1 and see if this is not his obvious emphasis. He deals with joy, faith, perseverance, doubt, pride, evil desire (lust), anger, moral filth, and being a doer of the Word. He is dealing with the Christian’s direct responsibilties in practical living, and he does this by relating it to the internal motives and characteristics of the person.

In verse 13, he is instructing the believer on how to rightly approach a temptation; he is not trying to explain the metaphysics behind it. Or, he is considering the believer’s responsibility concerning the inner factors in sanctification, and not the metaphysical cause or principle for these. But the metaphysical cause or principle is exactly what we are discussing when we consider whether God is the author of sin. Therefore, James 1:13 is not directly applicable to our topic; if one still wishes to deny that God is the author of sin, he will have to use another verse.
 
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UMP

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Why is there the insistence that man is a free moral agent and that God is not the author of sin?

From: The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination

"That the makers of the Westminster Confession recognized the freedom of man is plain; for immediately after declaring that "God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass," they added, "Yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

And:

God so governs the inward feelings, external environment, habits, desires, motives, etc., of men that they freely do what He purposes. This operation its inscrutable, but none the less real; and the mere fact that in our present state of knowledge we are not able fully to explain how this influence is exerted without destroying the free agency of man, certainly does not prove that it cannot be so exerted.

And:

An act is not free if determined from without; but it is free if rationally determined from within, and this is precisely what God's foreordination effects. The comprehensive decree provides that each man shall be a free agent, possessing a certain character, surrounded by a certain environment, subject to certain external influences, internally moved by certain affections, desires, habits, etc., and that in view of all these he shall freely and rationally make a choice. That the choice will be one thing and not another, is certain; and God, who knows and controls the exact causes of each influence, knows what that choice will be, and in a real sense determines it.

Why tiptoe around? Why so PC? To be palatable?
What's wrong with the Creator destroying and controlling people for his own good purpose? What's wrong with him hating and hardening the reprobate?
Could He do anything unjust, by definition?

Larry

Predestinarian Baptist (currently non communing PCA)

God the author of sin? What is your definition of "author" ? Allowing sin to enter His creation for his own blessed purpose without being guilty of sin Himself, yes indeed.

Or as Pink would say:

Should we be pressed further as to why God refused to exercise His power and prevent Adam’s fall, we should say, Because Adam’s fall better served His own wise and blessed purpose—among other things, it provided an opportunity to demonstrate that where sin had abounded grace could much more abound. But we might ask further; Why did God place in the garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when He foresaw that man would disobey His prohibition and eat of it; for mark, it was God and not Satan who made that tree. Should someone respond, Then is God the Author of Sin? We would have to ask, in turn, What is meant by "Author"? Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed. But we leave now the origin of sin, insisting once more, however, that God could have "withheld" Adam from sinning without destroying his responsibility.

Chapter 8, The Sovereignty of God.

Here then is the difficulty: If God has eternally decreed that Adam should eat of the tree, how could he be held responsible not to eat of it? Formidable as the problem appears, nevertheless, it is capable of a solution, a solution, moreover, which can be grasped even by the finite mind. The solution is to be found in the distinction between God's secret will and his revealed will. As stated in Appendix A 1411, human responsibility is measured by our knowledGen. of God's revealed will; what God has told us, not what he has not told us, is the definer of our duty. So it was with Adam.
That God had decreed sin should enter this world through the disobedience of our first parents was a secret hid in his own breast. Of this Adam knew nothing, and that made all the difference so far as his responsibility was concerned. Adam was quite unacquainted with the Creator's hidden counsels. What concerned him was God's revealed will. And that was plain! God had forbidden him to eat of the tree, and that was enough. But God went further: he even warned Adam of the dire consequences which would follow should he disobey — death would be the penalty. Transgression, then, on the part of Adam was entirely without excuse. Created with no evil nature in him, with a will in perfect equipoise, placed in the fairest environment, given dominion over all the lower creation, allowed full liberty with only a single restriction upon him, plainly warned of what would follow an act of insubordination to God, there was every possible inducement for Adam to preserve his innocence; and, should he fail and fall, then by every principle of righteousness his blood must lie upon his own head, and his guilt be imputed to all in whose behalf he acted.
Had God disclosed to Adam his purpose that sin would enter this world, and that he had decreed Adam should eat of the forbidden fruit, it is obvious that Adam could not have been held responsible for the eating of it. But in that God withheld the knowledGen. of his counsels from Adam, his accountability was not interfered with.
Again; had God created Adam with a bias toward evil, then human responsibility had been impaired and man's probation merely one in name. But inasmuch as Adam was included among that which God, at the end of the sixth day, pronounced "Very good", and, inasmuch as man was made "upright" (Ec 7:29), then every mouth must be stopped and the whole world must acknowledGen. itself "guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19).
Once more, it needs to be carefully borne in mind that God did not decree that Adam should sin and then inject into Adam an inclination to evil, in order that his decree might be carried out. No; "God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth he any man" (Jas 1:13). Instead, when the Serpent came to tempt Eve, God caused her to remember his command forbidding to eat of the tree of the knowledGen. of good and evil and of the penalty attached to disobedience! Thus, though God had decreed the Fall, in no sense was he the Author of Adam's sin, and at no point was Adam's responsibility impaired. Thus may we admire and adore the "manifold wisdom of God", in devising a way whereby his eternal decree should be accomplished, and yet the responsibility of his creatures be preserved intact.
perhaps. a further word should be added concerning the decretive will of God, particularly in its relation to evil. First of all we take the high ground that, whatever things God does or permits, are right, just, and good, simply because God does or permits them. When Luther gave answer to the question, "Whence it was that Adam was permitted to fall, and corrupt his whole posterity; when God could have prevented him from falling, etc", he said, "God is a Being whose will acknowledges no cause: neither is it for us to prescribe rules to his sovereign pleasure, or call him to account for what he does. He has neither superior nor equal; and his will is the rule of all things. He did not thus will such and such things because they were right, and he was bound to will them; but they are therefore equitable and right because he wills them. The will of man, indeed, may be influenced and moved; but God's will never can. To assert the contrary is to undeify him" (De Servo, Arb. c/ 153).
To affirm that God decreed the entrance of sin into his universe, and that he foreordained all its fruits and activities, is to say that which, at first may shock the reader; but reflection should show that it is far more shocking to insist that sin has invaded his dominions against his will, and that its exercise is outside his jurisdiction: for in such a case where would be his omnipotency? No; to recognise that God has foreordained all the activities of evil, is to see that he is the Governor of sin: his will determines its exercise, his power regulates its bounds (Psa. 76:10). He is neither the Inspirer nor the Infuser of sin in any of his creatures, but he is its Master, by which we mean God's management of the wicked is so entire that, they can do nothing save that which his hand and counsel, from everlasting, determined should be done.
Though nothing contrary to holiness and righteousness can ever emanate from God, yet he has, for his own wise ends, ordained his creatures to fall into sin. Had sin never been permitted, how could the justice of God have been displayed in punishing it? How could the wisdom of God have been manifested in so wondrously overruling it? How could the grace of God have been exhibited in pardoning it? How could the power of God have been exercised in subduing it? A very solemn and striking proof of Christ's acknowledgment of God's decretal of sin is seen in his treatment of Judas. The Saviour knew full well that Judas would betray him, yet we never read that he expostulated with him! Instead, he said to him, "That thou doest, do quickly" (John 13:27)! Yet, mark this was said after he had received the sop and Satan had taken possession of his heart. Judas was already prepared for and determined on his traitorous work, therefore did Christ permissively (bowing to his Father's ordination) bid him go forth to his awful work.
Thus, though God is not the author of sin, and though sin is contrary to his holy nature, yet the existence and operations of it are not contrary to his will, but subservient to it. God never tempts man to sin, but he has, by his eternal counsels (which he is now executing), determined its course. Moreover, as we have shown in 1388, though God has decreed man's sins, yet is man responsible not to commit them, and blameable because he does. Strikingly were these two sides of this awful subject brought together by Christ in that statement of his: "Woe unto the world because of offences! For it must needs be that offences come (because God has foreordained them); but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh" (Mt 18:7). So, too, though all which took place at Calvary was by the "determinate counsel and foreknowledGen. of God" (Acts 2:23), nevertheless, "wicked hands" crucified the Lord of glory, and, in consequence, his blood has righteously rested upon them and on their children. High mysteries are these, yet it is both our happy privileGen. and bounden duty to humbly receive whatsoever God has been pleased to reveal concerning them in his Word of Truth.

The Case of Adam, Appendix B.
 
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larssc

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God the author of sin? What is your definition of "author" ? Allowing sin to enter His creation for his own blessed purpose without being guilty of sin Himself, yes indeed.

Since God is righteous, He does not sin. He, in my
belief does not passively allow anything. He actively wills
motion in every quark in every atom, every thought in every mind. Why is man outside of God's active will?
How can he be? Does allowing contingency and second
causes remove responsibility of the first cause.
God determines the what, when, how of sin. He determines the means of sin. He created the Devil,
ordained the fall, makes men good, makes men evil,
creates heaven and hell and puts people there. He is
the alpha and omega and all that happens is to his
Glory.

What part (responsibility) does puppet man have in this?
None. Predestinated, conformed. Creatures made for his good pleasure. We are held accountable not because we are free moral agents, but because God wills it for his
purpose. We have the pleasure to experience what God
has planned for us, if we are elect, and suffer eternally
if we aren't. Why? Because God said so, which suffices.

I know this is a bit hyper, but traditional Reformed apologists apologise for God's sovereignty, so not to
"do violence" to our pretensions of free will.
 
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UMP

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I know this is a bit hyper, but traditional Reformed apologists apologise for God's sovereignty, so not to
"do violence" to our pretensions of free will.

I think it has more to do with mans inability to understand such a difficult subject. A Sovereign God, the author of sin, yet without sin. It's along the sames lines of 3 being one. We believe it, yet we cannot fully understand, or at least I speak for myself.
 
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heymikey80

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From Vincent Cheung, The Author of Sin

on James 1:13

The verse is telling you that when you deal with temptation, you must directly address your lust, and not just blame God and then do nothing, or remain in your sin. Read all of James 1 and see if this is not his obvious emphasis. He deals with joy, faith, perseverance, doubt, pride, evil desire (lust), anger, moral filth, and being a doer of the Word. He is dealing with the Christian’s direct responsibilties in practical living, and he does this by relating it to the internal motives and characteristics of the person.

In verse 13, he is instructing the believer on how to rightly approach a temptation; he is not trying to explain the metaphysics behind it. Or, he is considering the believer’s responsibility concerning the inner factors in sanctification, and not the metaphysical cause or principle for these. But the metaphysical cause or principle is exactly what we are discussing when we consider whether God is the author of sin. Therefore, James 1:13 is not directly applicable to our topic; if one still wishes to deny that God is the author of sin, he will have to use another verse.
Hm. Well, I don't see a paper-wall distinction between metaphysics and believers. I think believers are metaphysical beings.

When God says He doesn't cause people to be tempted, what does that mean to you? What does that really mean for metaphysics? Can you say people can't be tempted by God, and yet God causes temptation in people?

I would agree that the Bible isn't a metaphysical science text. On the other hand the implications of what God says clearly impact metaphysics.
I think it has more to do with mans inability to understand such a difficult subject. A Sovereign God, the author of sin, yet without sin. It's along the sames lines of 3 being one. We believe it, yet we cannot fully understand, or at least I speak for myself.
I'd agree to a certain extent; I think the problem is that most contemporaries simply think "authorship" is "causation". And me, I disagree there. God is not author of sin because God does not implement sin in a sinful way. To me sin is not an attribute of actions. That's um, a modernistic view of sin and virtue that is dizzyingly recent (1903, "Principia Ethica", G.E.Moore, intuitionist). To me sin is a condition of the soul that results in actions whereby we offend God (God, ca. 4000 BC, Genesis 3). It seems to me I really don't care whether the fruit was eaten or how horrible that act is, in itself. It was good for food. It's the soul that sins, not the fruit, not the action.
 
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heymikey80

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Thessalonians 2:
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

Comes close
Y'see, I think you're recognizing the falsehood of a god "too pure for sin to exist", true. But jumping to the opposite conclusion that God wants sin to exist because it's sin, is an opposite extreme. I don't think it's the truth, either.

There's an excluded middle here.

God caused sin to exist, yes. He's made it to put an end to it. (1 Jn 3:5) He didn't make sin for sin's sake. He's not enamored of sin (though ... we are).

God is a redemptive God (Bible). He wants these temporal challenges (Is 53:11), He wants to show to us His ability at rescue, and to show His closeness with His people (Rom 9:22-23). So He made things He intends to take apart -- in some very loving, very serious, very intense ways.
 
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larssc

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Hm. Well, I don't see a paper-wall distinction between metaphysics and believers. I think believers are metaphysical beings.

When God says He doesn't cause people to be tempted, what does that mean to you? What does that really mean for metaphysics? Can you say people can't be tempted by God, and yet God causes temptation in people?

I would agree that the Bible isn't a metaphysical science text. On the other hand the implications of what God says clearly impact metaphysics.

I'd agree to a certain extent; I think the problem is that most contemporaries simply think "authorship" is "causation". And me, I disagree there. God is not author of sin because God does not implement sin in a sinful way. To me sin is not an attribute of actions. That's um, a modernistic view of sin and virtue that is dizzyingly recent (1903, "Principia Ethica", G.E.Moore, intuitionist). To me sin is a condition of the soul that results in actions whereby we offend God (God, ca. 4000 BC, Genesis 3). It seems to me I really don't care whether the fruit was eaten or how horrible that act is, in itself. It was good for food. It's the soul that sins, not the fruit, not the action.

The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations. WCF

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Lead us not into temptation.>

Let me be clear. No way does God do evil or use evil
for evil puposes.

The cop out:

On the one hand, we want to maintain the freedom of God in election, and on the other hand, we want to avoid any conclusion which would make God the cause of sin and unbelief.
G. C. Berkouwer, Divine Election

One can blame sin on the Devil, the fall of Adam, or man's carnal nature. I agree with you that sin is not implemented by God with evil intent. But a nod
to Shakespeare: we are the players, He wrote the play.

As I go through daily life, I make choices, I sin, I repent
I am responsible, and I should hold myself accountable
as God does for my actions. On a metaphysical level
if God controls all external events "so men that they freely do what He purposes", then when confronted
with a choice to do evil, whether we call it testing or temptaion, man is led there by God, and the choice "in a real sense" is determined.

So yes God can tempt and test without directly intending that men sin. So we are not tempted in that
sense, like James says.

Will the sun come up tommorrow? If God wills.

Will I sin today?
 
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heymikey80

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The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations. WCF
Yes. An author isn't an author of what he leaves to others to write.
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Definitely. God may indeed lead us into temptation.
Lead us not into temptation.>
It'd be a horrible thing if we enjoyed it, and wanted God to lead us there.
Let me be clear. No way does God do evil or use evil
for evil puposes.
Understood beforehand that youagree there.
The cop out:

On the one hand, we want to maintain the freedom of God in election, and on the other hand, we want to avoid any conclusion which would make God the cause of sin and unbelief.
G. C. Berkouwer, Divine Election
Yeah, I think this is just shallow sophistry too.
One can blame sin on the Devil, the fall of Adam, or man's carnal nature. I agree with you that sin is not implemented by God with evil intent. But a nod
to Shakespeare: we are the players, He wrote the play.
The author to a play is not the criminal He writes about. The author of sin is not the one who writes sin into the play -- it's the one who writes it into his record. The author is the one who designs to perform what is performed. The author to a play wasn't on now-archaic terms split off from the director -- the author was the one who carried out the play. The author to a book carries out the work of writing. But the author of sin implements the tools of sin, not the tools of writing.

It might be useful to realize that authorship and authority are stemmed concepts; they come from the same ideas of responsibility and deserved intent in action.
As I go through daily life, I make choices, I sin, I repent I am responsible, and I should hold myself accountable
as God does for my actions. On a metaphysical level if God controls all external events "so men that they freely do what He purposes", then when confronted with a choice to do evil, whether we call it testing or temptaion, man is led there by God, and the choice "in a real sense" is determined.
Yes.
So yes God can tempt and test without directly intending that men sin. So we are not tempted in that
sense, like James says.
Actually, I'd go further than that: God can and does intend that we sin and intending that we are sinful, as in the prior response.

The point I often bring up is that His intent is infinite, superintending good over and even through our limited, self-intending evil.
Will the sun come up tommorrow? If God wills.

Will I sin today?
As God has said, yes. Rom 3:10ff
 
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