Baha'i What's Wrong with Baha'i?

[Arthra]

I was not referring to his leaving to Constantinople, but Baha'u'llah leaving for Kurdistan due to tensions in Baghdad, when the initially post-Bab movement started to splinter due to Mirza Yahya's absentee style leadership, from what I read.

I'll let Baha'u'llah describe it in His own words:

"In Tihran We were twice imprisoned as a result of Our 585 having risen to defend the cause of the innocent against a ruthless oppressor. The first confinement to which We were subjected followed the slaying of Mulla Taqiy-i-Qazvini, and was occasioned by the assistance We were moved to extend to those upon whom a severe punishment had been undeservedly inflicted. Our second imprisonment, infinitely more severe, was precipitated by the attempt which irresponsible followers of the Faith made on the life of the Shah. That event led to Our banishment to Baghdad.

"Soon after Our arrival, We betook Ourself to the mountains of Kurdistan, where We led for a time a life of complete solitude. We sought shelter upon the summit of a remote mountain which lay at some three days' distance from the nearest human habitation. The comforts of life were completely lacking. We remained entirely isolated from Our fellow men until a certain Shaykh Isma'il discovered Our abode and brought Us the food We needed.

'Upon Our return to Baghdad, We found, to Our great astonishment, that the Cause of the Báb had been sorely neglected, that its influence had waned, that its very name had almost sunk into oblivion. We arose to revive His Cause and to save it from decay and corruption. At the time when ear and perplexity had taken fast hold of Our companions, We reasserted, with fearlessness and determination, its essential verities, and summoned all those who had become lukewarm to espouse with enthusiasm the Faith they had so grievously neglected. We sent forth Our appeal to the peoples of the world, and invited them to fix their gaze upon the light of His Revelation."

Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 584

Actually this is Shoghi Effendi's translation of Nabil's Narrative.

Here is a reference to it by Abdul-Baha:

Now Bahá'u'lláh so acted that the hearts of this sect were drawn towards Him, while most of the inhabitants of 'Iraq were reduced to silence and speechlessness, some being amazed and others angered. After remaining there for one year He withdrew His hand from all things, abandoned relatives and connections, and, without the knowledge of His followers, quitted 'Iraq alone and solitary, without companion, supporter, associate, or comrade. For nigh upon two years He dwelt in Turkish Kurdistan, generally in a place named Sar-Galu, situated in the mountains, and far removed from human habitations. Sometimes on rare occasions He used to frequent Sulaymaniyyih. Ere long had elapsed the most eminent doctors of those regions got some inkling of His circumstances and conditions, and conversed with Him on the solution of certain difficult questions connected with the most abstruse points of theology. Having witnessed on His part ample signs and satisfactory explanations they observed towards Him the utmost respectfulness and deference.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 38)

 

[Arthra]

On your article, so essentially the Manifestations are Perfect souls with a pre-existence before their earthly life. So, does this mean they have always existed and all future Manifestations are already in existence? Or are they created in a spiritual realm before being born, but have not always been? I see in the third aspect of a Manifestation (Material, human, divine) they are equated to the eternal Logos of Christianity and Hellenistic philosophy, but does this mean they are all aspects of one subsidiary being or are there multiple Logoi? If the latter, how can this be if there revelations differ so, especially in light of the different mirrors analogy.
This still begs the question of how a Perfect Soul did not know he was a Manifestation until later.

Quid... I think the important part of this is that the Manifestations have innate knowledge... Just as Jesus had when He dialogued with the learned in the Temple of Jerusalem when His parents were there.. So there are signs He had innate knowledge even before His baptism and the descent of the Holy Spirit.

There are three aspects of the Manifestations as the article by Julio Savi relates:

Their threefold reality

What is this power that enables them to bestow upon mankind such teachings and spiritual forces? The Bahá'í texts maintain that they convey to mankind `the revelation of the Soul of God',[7] in other words they are the visible expression of the spiritual reality of the world of the Kingdom.[8]
This spiritual reality, the First Emanation of the Divine Reality, is reflected in the human reality of these personages, like the sun is reflected in a perfect mirror. They are therefore characterized by a threefold reality:

Material: that is, their bodies, which -- like all human bodies -- are bound to be born, to grow up, to develop and to die.

Human: that is, their souls, their individualities. In this regard Bahá'u'lláh writes: `Everyone of them is a mirror of God... All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being...'. He writes moreover that the soul of the Manifestation of God is `a pure and stainless Soul'99 and `Abdu'l-Bahá explains that it is `a perfect soul', `like a mirror wherein the Sun of Reality is reflected... a perfect expression of the Sun'.[10]
When the soul of the Manifestation is compared to God, it is like a perfect mirror reflecting the divine rays; when it is compared to mankind, that soul occupies a quite different position. `Abdu'l-Bahá says: `... the individual reality of the Manifestation of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things...'.[11]
In this context, He likens this perfect Soul to the sun, which is the direct source of its shining rays, and human souls to the moon, which merely reflects those rays.

These souls are different from human souls also in another respect: `The Prophets are pre-existent. The soul or spirit of the individual comes into being with the conception of the physical body. The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being...'.[12]
Also the Manifestations of God have a `rational soul, which is the human reality', or `human spirit', says `Abdu'l-Bahá, and they `... share it with all mankind'. However, He explains that the degree of perception typical of the Manifestations of God is not the same rational perception which is typical of human souls, but a `universal divine mind' transcending human knowledge, in that it is `a conscious power, not a power of investigation and of research'. Such power `is the special attribute of the Holy Manifestations and of the Dawning-Places of Prophethood; a ray of this light falls upon the mirrors of the hearts of the righteous'.[13]
Therefore human knowledge is but the reflection of a ray, when compared to such a sun as is the knowledge of the Manifestation of God.

Moreover, in the station of their individualities `the Divine Manifestations are so many different mirrors, because they have a special individuality... It is clear that the reality of Christ is different from that of Moses.' Nevertheless `that which is reflected in the mirrors is the one sun',[14] therefore it is easy to understand how, though the Manifestations of God differ from each other in many respects, yet they are essentially one and the same.

Divine: that is the Word of God, the Logos. This reality has neither a beginning nor an end; it is eternal, yet it is inferior to God, because it was created by Him. `... this third state is alone partaken of by the divine messengers, although great saints have attained extraordinary pre-eminence and reflect the splendour of the sun,'[15] says `Abdu'l-Bahá.

These three aspects of the reality of the Manifestation of God are described by `Abdu'l-Bahá through the following metaphor: their material nature is as a niche, their human nature is as the lamp within the niche, their divine nature as the light which emanates from the lamp.[16]
Therefore, since the Manifestations of God are endowed with a `divine universal mind', they know the essence of things, and not just their attributes. Their knowledge of the essence of things is likened by `Abdu'l-Bahá to the self-consciousness of human beings: `it is a conscious power, not a power of investigation and of research',[17] He says. As they are endowed with such perfect knowledge-consciousness of the world, they know also `the essential connection which proceeds from the realities of things',[18] which `Abdu'l-Bahá defines as `nature' in its meaning of will of God. Therefore they can convey to mankind as much of their knowledge as mankind can profit from in its specific time and circumstances, a knowledge which may well be defined as `science of reality'.[19]

 

[Arthra]

So God would be One like Judaeo-Christianity and Islam, but also locked in dualism like Zoroaster and Polytheistic like Krishna? How can both the sinless conceptions of Hinduism with Karma be equated with Christianity's views of Sin and Atonement in one worldview? As they apparently had 'universal divine minds transcending human knowledge', why did Mohammed say the Christian revelation was incomplete and idolatry wrong, when Krishna essentially supports idols and Jesus said He was the only way to Truth?

Recall Quid that what we have of these past Manifestations especially the ancient Ones is not altogether clear ...there were admixtures and characterizations that did not belong to the original teachings which were sometimes lost or obscured. What was given in teachings suited the conditions of the times they were revealed and later became lost or obscured. What I find of interest today is that when representatives of the various religions gather in inter-faith fellowship is that there is so much in common! If you look for them you can see similarities.

 

[Job8]

there is only one God and people know her according to their capacity to know her

Now that is a really profound statement!

Getting back to Bahaism, it is an attempt to blend many religions, but ultimately reject the Deity of Christ and His finished work of redemption. And no religion can possibly make a man fit for Heaven.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Quid... I think the important part of this is that the Manifestations have innate knowledge... Just as Jesus had when He dialogued with the learned in the Temple of Jerusalem when His parents were there.. So there are signs He had innate knowledge even before His baptism and the descent of the Holy Spirit.

There are three aspects of the Manifestations as the article by Julio Savi relates:

Their threefold reality

What is this power that enables them to bestow upon mankind such teachings and spiritual forces? The Bahá'í texts maintain that they convey to mankind `the revelation of the Soul of God',[7] in other words they are the visible expression of the spiritual reality of the world of the Kingdom.[8]
This spiritual reality, the First Emanation of the Divine Reality, is reflected in the human reality of these personages, like the sun is reflected in a perfect mirror. They are therefore characterized by a threefold reality:

Material: that is, their bodies, which -- like all human bodies -- are bound to be born, to grow up, to develop and to die.

Human: that is, their souls, their individualities. In this regard Bahá'u'lláh writes: `Everyone of them is a mirror of God... All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being...'. He writes moreover that the soul of the Manifestation of God is `a pure and stainless Soul'99 and `Abdu'l-Bahá explains that it is `a perfect soul', `like a mirror wherein the Sun of Reality is reflected... a perfect expression of the Sun'.[10]
When the soul of the Manifestation is compared to God, it is like a perfect mirror reflecting the divine rays; when it is compared to mankind, that soul occupies a quite different position. `Abdu'l-Bahá says: `... the individual reality of the Manifestation of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things...'.[11]
In this context, He likens this perfect Soul to the sun, which is the direct source of its shining rays, and human souls to the moon, which merely reflects those rays.

These souls are different from human souls also in another respect: `The Prophets are pre-existent. The soul or spirit of the individual comes into being with the conception of the physical body. The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being...'.[12]
Also the Manifestations of God have a `rational soul, which is the human reality', or `human spirit', says `Abdu'l-Bahá, and they `... share it with all mankind'. However, He explains that the degree of perception typical of the Manifestations of God is not the same rational perception which is typical of human souls, but a `universal divine mind' transcending human knowledge, in that it is `a conscious power, not a power of investigation and of research'. Such power `is the special attribute of the Holy Manifestations and of the Dawning-Places of Prophethood; a ray of this light falls upon the mirrors of the hearts of the righteous'.[13]
Therefore human knowledge is but the reflection of a ray, when compared to such a sun as is the knowledge of the Manifestation of God.

Moreover, in the station of their individualities `the Divine Manifestations are so many different mirrors, because they have a special individuality... It is clear that the reality of Christ is different from that of Moses.' Nevertheless `that which is reflected in the mirrors is the one sun',[14] therefore it is easy to understand how, though the Manifestations of God differ from each other in many respects, yet they are essentially one and the same.

Divine: that is the Word of God, the Logos. This reality has neither a beginning nor an end; it is eternal, yet it is inferior to God, because it was created by Him. `... this third state is alone partaken of by the divine messengers, although great saints have attained extraordinary pre-eminence and reflect the splendour of the sun,'[15] says `Abdu'l-Bahá.

These three aspects of the reality of the Manifestation of God are described by `Abdu'l-Bahá through the following metaphor: their material nature is as a niche, their human nature is as the lamp within the niche, their divine nature as the light which emanates from the lamp.[16]
Therefore, since the Manifestations of God are endowed with a `divine universal mind', they know the essence of things, and not just their attributes. Their knowledge of the essence of things is likened by `Abdu'l-Bahá to the self-consciousness of human beings: `it is a conscious power, not a power of investigation and of research',[17] He says. As they are endowed with such perfect knowledge-consciousness of the world, they know also `the essential connection which proceeds from the realities of things',[18] which `Abdu'l-Bahá defines as `nature' in its meaning of will of God. Therefore they can convey to mankind as much of their knowledge as mankind can profit from in its specific time and circumstances, a knowledge which may well be defined as `science of reality'.[19]

You miss the point. I read your article and saw those three divisions, in fact I referenced them. I was asking regarding what the article said as I find its thinking muddled regarding the Manifestations as humans or as the Logos (or Logoi). I wanted clarification which restating the article does not give me nor talking of their 'divine universal mind' as I understood that implication from the aspect of regarding them as the Logos.

As for Jesus, the point was that Baha'u'llah received instruction from the Bab and had to realise he was a manifestation. This is vastly different from Jesus and His automatic acceptance as the Messiah by John the Baptist.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am asking, but I am unsure how to phrase it better.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Recall Quid that what we have of these past Manifestations especially the ancient Ones is not altogether clear ...there were admixtures and characterizations that did not belong to the original teachings which were sometimes lost or obscured. What was given in teachings suited the conditions of the times they were revealed and later became lost or obscured. What I find of interest today is that when representatives of the various religions gather in inter-faith fellowship is that there is so much in common! If you look for them you can see similarities.

But that does not mean they are actual similarities and there are also massive differences which can't just be papered over.
For instance Buddhism talks of Compassion, but Buddhist compassion is about being stuck in the illusion of existence and therefore experiencing Karma, as opposed to Christian ideas of Compassion and Mercy which are more to relieving suffering as an unfortunate byproduct of the Fall. They appear similar on the surface, but the two conceptions are not actually so.

 

[Arthra]

Now that is a really profound statement!

Getting back to Bahaism, it is an attempt to blend many religions, but ultimately reject the Deity of Christ and His finished work of redemption. And no religion can possibly make a man fit for Heaven.

Thanks Job for your post!

It's not in our view syncretism or an attempt to blend many religions.. If you read the Writings it's more of a restating of the Divine Source of the great religions in the context of our times.

 

[Job8]

It's not in our view syncretism or an attempt to blend many religions.. If you read the Writings it's more of a restating of the Divine Source of the great religions in the context of our times.

Fair enough. The real issue is that neither Moses, nor Mohammad, nor Baha'ullah should be placed on the same plane as Jesus of Nazareth.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16).

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Quid... I think the important part of this is that the Manifestations have innate knowledge... Just as Jesus had when He dialogued with the learned in the Temple of Jerusalem when His parents were there.. So there are signs He had innate knowledge even before His baptism and the descent of the Holy Spirit.

There are three aspects of the Manifestations as the article by Julio Savi relates:

Their threefold reality

What is this power that enables them to bestow upon mankind such teachings and spiritual forces? The Bahá'í texts maintain that they convey to mankind `the revelation of the Soul of God',[7] in other words they are the visible expression of the spiritual reality of the world of the Kingdom.[8]
This spiritual reality, the First Emanation of the Divine Reality, is reflected in the human reality of these personages, like the sun is reflected in a perfect mirror. They are therefore characterized by a threefold reality:

Material: that is, their bodies, which -- like all human bodies -- are bound to be born, to grow up, to develop and to die.

Human: that is, their souls, their individualities. In this regard Bahá'u'lláh writes: `Everyone of them is a mirror of God... All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being...'. He writes moreover that the soul of the Manifestation of God is `a pure and stainless Soul'99 and `Abdu'l-Bahá explains that it is `a perfect soul', `like a mirror wherein the Sun of Reality is reflected... a perfect expression of the Sun'.[10]
When the soul of the Manifestation is compared to God, it is like a perfect mirror reflecting the divine rays; when it is compared to mankind, that soul occupies a quite different position. `Abdu'l-Bahá says: `... the individual reality of the Manifestation of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things...'.[11]
In this context, He likens this perfect Soul to the sun, which is the direct source of its shining rays, and human souls to the moon, which merely reflects those rays.

These souls are different from human souls also in another respect: `The Prophets are pre-existent. The soul or spirit of the individual comes into being with the conception of the physical body. The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being...'.[12]
Also the Manifestations of God have a `rational soul, which is the human reality', or `human spirit', says `Abdu'l-Bahá, and they `... share it with all mankind'. However, He explains that the degree of perception typical of the Manifestations of God is not the same rational perception which is typical of human souls, but a `universal divine mind' transcending human knowledge, in that it is `a conscious power, not a power of investigation and of research'. Such power `is the special attribute of the Holy Manifestations and of the Dawning-Places of Prophethood; a ray of this light falls upon the mirrors of the hearts of the righteous'.[13]
Therefore human knowledge is but the reflection of a ray, when compared to such a sun as is the knowledge of the Manifestation of God.

Moreover, in the station of their individualities `the Divine Manifestations are so many different mirrors, because they have a special individuality... It is clear that the reality of Christ is different from that of Moses.' Nevertheless `that which is reflected in the mirrors is the one sun',[14] therefore it is easy to understand how, though the Manifestations of God differ from each other in many respects, yet they are essentially one and the same.

Divine: that is the Word of God, the Logos. This reality has neither a beginning nor an end; it is eternal, yet it is inferior to God, because it was created by Him. `... this third state is alone partaken of by the divine messengers, although great saints have attained extraordinary pre-eminence and reflect the splendour of the sun,'[15] says `Abdu'l-Bahá.

These three aspects of the reality of the Manifestation of God are described by `Abdu'l-Bahá through the following metaphor: their material nature is as a niche, their human nature is as the lamp within the niche, their divine nature as the light which emanates from the lamp.[16]
Therefore, since the Manifestations of God are endowed with a `divine universal mind', they know the essence of things, and not just their attributes. Their knowledge of the essence of things is likened by `Abdu'l-Bahá to the self-consciousness of human beings: `it is a conscious power, not a power of investigation and of research',[17] He says. As they are endowed with such perfect knowledge-consciousness of the world, they know also `the essential connection which proceeds from the realities of things',[18] which `Abdu'l-Bahá defines as `nature' in its meaning of will of God. Therefore they can convey to mankind as much of their knowledge as mankind can profit from in its specific time and circumstances, a knowledge which may well be defined as `science of reality'.[19]

Let me try again.
1: As Manifestations are pre-existent, have they always existed or were they created later? Do the future manifestations already exist then?
2: As Manifestations are equated to the Logos, are they all one being or are there multiple Logoi. If they are one being as the idea of 'divine universal mind' and Logos implies, why do they have differing views of God?

The Mirror Analogy or different views of the same thing doesn't work if the ideas are polar opposites. The most basic ideas must be similar in some manner at least. The Monotheism versus the Polytheism versus Panentheism of Jesus, Krishna and Zoroaster makes no sense. Even if you say the traditions were corrupted or became lost, the idea at heart must be the same, while they don't even agree on what the problem with earthly existence is. How can such disparate ideas in any way be a mirror image of one idea? If that is the case, then God is so beyond understanding that nothing whatsoever can be said of Him from a human perspective. Their followers would not corrupt their theology to such an extent that the original tradition wouldn't be traceable and we can follow the development of the religions in history, so we can safely say the basics of what Zoroaster, Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha at least taught and they are in no way compatible to each other.

 

[Arthra]

Actually Quid in my view if you've studied how religions have developed over successive periods of time you can find evidence that earlier scriptures and ideas were lost or forgotten and this may be one reason God sends a new Messenger to remind the believers of the original spiritual reasons for some of their laws and commandments. Consider some of the pronouncements of Jesus when He dealt with the legalism of the Pharisees.

 

[Arthra]

Fair enough. The real issue is that neither Moses, nor Mohammad, nor Baha'ullah should be placed on the same plane as Jesus of Nazareth.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Timothy 3:16).

"Manifest in the flesh" may have had a reason at the time these words were set to writing as Docetism was a fairly wide spread heresy in the early church. Read the following article as a reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism.

If you read some of the definitions of what is a Manifestation of God you know that we believe there is a threefold reality which includes a physical existence.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Actually Quid in my view if you've studied how religions have developed over successive periods of time you can find evidence that earlier scriptures and ideas were lost or forgotten and this may be one reason God sends a new Messenger to remind the believers of the original spiritual reasons for some of their laws and commandments. Consider some of the pronouncements of Jesus when He dealt with the legalism of the Pharisees.

Could you give examples of how scriptures or ideas were lost in Jesus pronouncements to the Pharisees? He refers to them misinterpreting it, using accepted Jewish midrashic practice in many cases, not having 'lost' any of it. In fact, Jesus doesn't change the Old testament at all, as He says, not an iota of it would pass away.

Again though, Christianity will never start worshipping millions of gods or seeing cosmic dualism or Panentheism or adopt Buddhist views on universal monism, no matter how many years passed. Even if we did, we would still be able to follow up a semblance of the original historically. The critique that a somehow the original manifestations' views compare to one another doesn't hold water, as no amount of change would completely dissipate the bare essentials that can be seen of the original teaching of each and they are complete opposites in many cases.

Are you not going to answer my questions on the nature of Manifestations then? They aren't trick questions, I am just sincerely trying to understand your worldview.

 

[Arthra]

Could you give examples of how scriptures or ideas were lost in Jesus pronouncements to the Pharisees? He refers to them misinterpreting it...,

That's an example...misinterpretation... In other words they lost the original meaning.

"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER ' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;

and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court;

and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.…

This is an example of how a Manifestation corrects the understanding that has been lost or misunderstood.

Because the ancient teachings and understandings were not preserved over time as Quid wrote above

"... the bare essentials..." can be lost or forgotten.

Over time and considering misinterpretations people left to their own fantasies and imaginings will lack the understanding and guidance they sorely need and that's why God sends His Messengers.

Are They misinterpreted over time and the original meanings lost? Yes..

Consider the verses that were quoted in the first post of this thread:

1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [his] Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

God "speaks" through His prophets to ancient peoples "by divers portions and in divers manners" and "at the end of these days"..."spoken unto us in His Son..." "who being the effulgence of His glory and the very image of His substance"... Can we appreciate the Mirror analogy in this verse?

So this basically this is the manner God works with us...progressively and over time.

God doesn't leave us alone without His guidance and so new Manifestations appear that reflect His "glory".

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

That's an example...misinterpretation... In other words they lost the original meaning.

"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER ' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;

and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court;

and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.…

This is an example of how a Manifestation corrects the understanding that has been lost or misunderstood.

Because the ancient teachings and understandings were not preserved over time as Quid wrote above

"... the bare essentials..." can be lost or forgotten.

Over time and considering misinterpretations people left to their own fantasies and imaginings will lack the understanding and guidance they sorely need and that's why God sends His Messengers.

Are They misinterpreted over time and the original meanings lost? Yes..

Consider the verses that were quoted in the first post of this thread:

1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [his] Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

God "speaks" through His prophets to ancient peoples "by divers portions and in divers manners" and "at the end of these days"..."spoken unto us in His Son..." "who being the effulgence of His glory and the very image of His substance"... Can we appreciate the Mirror analogy in this verse?

So this basically this is the manner God works with us...progressively and over time.

God doesn't leave us alone without His guidance and so new Manifestations appear that reflect His "glory".

You cannot apply the mirror analogy there, unfortunately as Jesus says elsewhere that "before Abraham was, I AM" thus equating himself directly to the God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. Unless a Manifestation can talk to another Manifestation and not reflecting God?
It clearly states Jesus upholds all things, made the world etc. in that passage, which is far more than a reflection of God. Coupled with the other passages of Scripture it is inescable that Jesus should be considered God Himself.

As to 'misunderstanding', that was a poor choice of words on my part, for which I apologise, but your examples illustrate nicely what I meant. Everything the Pharisees said was correct and valid, Jesus is merely extending the meaning to its natural conclusion.

What I meant with bare essentials is not the minutiae you presented here. It is "hear o Israel, the Lord is One" and "There is no God but Allah" versus "All existence is an illusion" for instance. Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha's followers all wrote scriptures within the lifetimes of the first disciples. If their message had gone 'wrong' it must have been immediate and not a gradual process, but this is highly unlikely as independant accounts of each (Gospels, Hadith, Pali Sutras) all present a similar narrative. Therefore we can conclude this is what they had taught to a high degree of certainty. These are the bare essentials of these groups, which do not agree at all, for Mohammed denies Jesus' divinity, Buddha denies the existence of individuals themselves, even the soul. On moral teaching they also differ, with Mohammed being a warlord, Jesus turning the other cheek and Buddha denying the world all together. Buddha abandoned his wife and child, something Mohammed or Jesus would consider highly immoral.
There is no way they all 'reflect' the same God, for their teachings do not allow it. Unless you mean that each revelation replaces the previous one as closer to the actual teaching of God it makes no sense, but to consider them all in some way correct is illogical. But that would open a whole different kettle of fish of problems with 'improved revelations' when most explicitly say they have the answer, they are the final revelation.
The only way to say that all these figures are Manifestations of the same God, would be to deny that we know anything whatsoever about their teachings, which is of course not the case.

Back to my original query then, So Baha'u'llah is not considered God then, but had a pre-existence as a Logos. What is the nature of this pre-existence toward the godhead? Please tell me if you are going to answer this question as I have been reasking it in post after post and am really perplexed. I want to understand your view better, I don't mean to offend at all.

 

[Widlast]

Where'd ya get the fruit bat? Is that a young Flying Fox?

Interesting creatures.

 

[Widlast]

Throughout the ages, Satan has sent deceivers known as False Prophets—<add long list here>—to corrupt humanity’s spiritual, intellectual and moral capacities. Following the coming of a False Prophet chaos and mayhem occurs in the world. Reaching to the roots of human depravity, his teachings awaken in whole populations capacities to contribute to the debasement of civilization to an extent never before possible.

There ... fixed that for you.

 

[Arthra]

What I meant with bare essentials is not the minutiae you presented here. It is "hear o Israel, the Lord is One" and "There is no God but Allah" versus "All existence is an illusion" for instance. Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha's followers all wrote scriptures within the lifetimes of the first disciples.

Quid...

Thanks for your post. While I would agree with you that the Qur'an was set to writing certainly by Ali ibn abi Talib and several secretaries the same cannot be said for Buddhist scriptures (the Pali canon) which verbally transmitted over time

It was composed in North India, and preserved orally until it was committed to writing during the Fourth Buddhist Council in Sri Lanka in 29 BCE, approximately 454 years after the death of Gautama Buddha.[a]

Wikipedia

Also and I think in some ways you mischaracterized Buddhist thought on the subject is an article I'd like for you to consider at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology#In_Buddhism

The Christian scriptures while I agree they contain truth were also verbally transmitted and the earliest copies we know of date near the end of the first century..

The researchers found a fragment of the Gospel of Mark that dates back to about 90 A.D., Live Science reports. Previously, the oldest surviving copies of Biblical gospel texts date back to 101 to 200 A.D.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/01/22/mummy-mask-papyrus-may-reveal-oldest-known-gospel.html

Baha'is do believe by the way that the Gospels have not been corrupted.

 

[Arthra]

Back to my original query then, So Baha'u'llah is not considered God then, but had a pre-existence as a Logos. What is the nature of this pre-existence toward the godhead? Please tell me if you are going to answer this question as I have been reasking it in post after post and am really perplexed. I want to understand your view better, I don't mean to offend at all.

Once more my friend... The most succinct explanation was provided in my view in the post above #22 and an excerpt reads:

"When the soul of the Manifestation is compared to God, it is like a perfect mirror reflecting the divine rays; when it is compared to mankind, that soul occupies a quite different position. `Abdu'l-Bahá says: `... the individual reality of the Manifestation of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things...'.[11]

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Once more my friend... The most succinct explanation was provided in my view in the post above #22 and an excerpt reads:

"When the soul of the Manifestation is compared to God, it is like a perfect mirror reflecting the divine rays; when it is compared to mankind, that soul occupies a quite different position. `Abdu'l-Bahá says: `... the individual reality of the Manifestation of God is a holy reality, and for that reason it is sanctified and, in that which concerns its nature and quality, is distinguished from all other things...'.[11]

That explanation doesn't answer what I am asking at all. I am trying to understand where you are coming from a Christian perspective, on the pre-existent manifestation vis-a-vis the godhead which it does not seem to me is answered in any of these things. But thats fine, I don't expect you to know every fine point of theology as most christians don't as well. I thank you for the insight.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Quid...

Thanks for your post. While I would agree with you that the Qur'an was set to writing certainly by Ali ibn abi Talib and several secretaries the same cannot be said for Buddhist scriptures (the Pali canon) which verbally transmitted over time

It was composed in North India, and preserved orally until it was committed to writing during the Fourth Buddhist Council in Sri Lanka in 29 BCE, approximately 454 years after the death of Gautama Buddha.[a]

Wikipedia

Also and I think in some ways you mischaracterized Buddhist thought on the subject is an article I'd like for you to consider at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology#In_Buddhism

The Christian scriptures while I agree they contain truth were also verbally transmitted and the earliest copies we know of date near the end of the first century..

The researchers found a fragment of the Gospel of Mark that dates back to about 90 A.D., Live Science reports. Previously, the oldest surviving copies of Biblical gospel texts date back to 101 to 200 A.D.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/01/22/mummy-mask-papyrus-may-reveal-oldest-known-gospel.html

Baha'is do believe by the way that the Gospels have not been corrupted.

Yes, as I said written within the lifetimes of first adherents. About 40-60 years for Christianity and certain sutras for Buddhism. The Pali canon was only established at that time as the Christian one was in the fourth century, but the individual works therein are much older.
Besides, it doesn't change my point at all. Especially if the gospels aren't corrupted as Jesus is God Incarnate while Baha'u'llah seems to claim a separate existence it seems, so the views are completely incompatible.