what's with all the 'everyone gets saved' thinking.

[arunma]

Wow, what an old thread. Not that I'm not interested in debating universalism. It's a dangerous heresy, and it should be discussed.

 

[erin74]

I've been doing Roman's lately. We looked last week at the importance of God being both just and merciful to his righeousness. I wonder how much of universalism stems from a misunderstanding of these two concepts.

 

[PastorMikeJ]

but if everyone gets saved then why the book of Revelation??

 

[Nadiine]

I've been doing Roman's lately. We looked last week at the importance of God being both just and merciful to his righeousness. I wonder how much of universalism stems from a misunderstanding of these two concepts.

I agree with you on this.

I think the bigger problem is people are rejecting 'absolute truth', so they grab all the bits & pieces out of the Bible that they like & what makes them feel good, and toss the rest out.

I'm finding that less and less people are actually STUDYING God's word, but using it randomly and not taking the ENTIRE bible into account.
As if it's from Oprah to give us some positive fuzzy feelings & self esteem or something...

I really think we're in the times that 2 Timothy 4:3 mentions that the day will come when men will not endure Sound Doctrine.

 

[arunma]

I really think we're in the times that 2 Timothy 4:3 mentions that the day will come when men will not endure Sound Doctrine.

Actually, we 21st century Christians have it pretty good. In the time immediately after the Apostles, many heretics appeared, and they certainly did not endure sound doctrine. It is only by God's grace that church fathers were raised up to protect God's people from heresies. At least today we have an established orthodoxy. Back in the time of Saint Irenaeus and Saint Justin Martyr, heresies were everywhere.

 

[Nadiine]

Actually, we 21st century Christians have it pretty good. In the time immediately after the Apostles, many heretics appeared, and they certainly did not endure sound doctrine. It is only by God's grace that church fathers were raised up to protect God's people from heresies. At least today we have an established orthodoxy. Back in the time of Saint Irenaeus and Saint Justin Martyr, heresies were everywhere.

Yes, good points.

But I said that on the heels of learning that Europe is falling into a high percentage of atheism w/ their Orthodox churches all but empty...

As I see America in a cultural war where God is being removed from the public square and as I see many other signs of prophecy being fulfilled in rapid succession.

Just the other night my husband and I were watching the news and all I saw was worldwide chaos & unrest and I mentioned how I wished it were the 80's again when things were more "carefree".

When I really stop to think back, things weren't really 'carefree' back then at all... just that compared today, they seem like it was "Leave it to Beaver" time.

It looks to me like the errosion of society is happening pretty rapidly in general... so I do have alot of concerns even though I agree with your post completely, they had it WORSE than we do today!!

Agreed.

 

[McWilliams]

It is comforting to know we serve a sovereign God, in charge of all that occurs!
The problem today is not as startling in our society as it is in the church! John's words to the church of Laodicea definitely apply! Apathy abounds! Chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation are an illustration of what the church needs to be! Such great words there to inspire our return to our first love of Christ and to serve Him and others!

 

[Nadiine]

It is comforting to know we serve a sovereign God, in charge of all that occurs!
The problem today is not as startling in our society as it is in the church! John's words to the church of Laodicea definitely apply! Apathy abounds! Chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation are an illustration of what the church needs to be! Such great words there to inspire our return to our first love of Christ and to serve Him and others!

TO THAT

Coincidentally, I had just read those passages in tears of conviction just last month.

I had the problem of apathy for the last 2 years - I just wanted to bury my head in the sand to what i was seeing and take a spiritual vacation...
But, God doesn't let us dangle on the rope too long!

It's SO easy to slip into this world & just "live like a normal person", but God has things for us to do, and my prayer is that He keep me enlisted and I please Him somehow.

He's SO good to us. He never leaves or forsakes us.

Thanks for your post!

 

[arunma]

Yes, good points.

But I said that on the heels of learning that Europe is falling into a high percentage of atheism w/ their Orthodox churches all but empty...

As I see America in a cultural war where God is being removed from the public square and as I see many other signs of prophecy being fulfilled in rapid succession.

Just the other night my husband and I were watching the news and all I saw was worldwide chaos & unrest and I mentioned how I wished it were the 80's again when things were more "carefree".

When I really stop to think back, things weren't really 'carefree' back then at all... just that compared today, they seem like it was "Leave it to Beaver" time.

It looks to me like the errosion of society is happening pretty rapidly in general... so I do have alot of concerns even though I agree with your post completely, they had it WORSE than we do today!!

Agreed.

I see exactly what you mean. I've been studying the book of Jeremiah, and it is a great example of how Europe and America are today. But God always keeps faithful people for himself. These days, the church is growing very rapidly in South Korea and China. And who knows where God will choose to ignite a passion for his supremacy next?

 

[Nadiine]

I see exactly what you mean. I've been studying the book of Jeremiah, and it is a great example of how Europe and America are today. But God always keeps faithful people for himself. These days, the church is growing very rapidly in South Korea and China. And who knows where God will choose to ignite a passion for his supremacy next?

Well praise God for that!
I had heard that about China, but wasn't aware of South Korea.

Thanks for that info

 

[arunma]

Well praise God for that!
I had heard that about China, but wasn't aware of South Korea.

Thanks for that info

I know, it's rather surprising. But in South Korea, Christianity has become the dominant religion. I praise God that the Buddhists are actually worried that their religion will become extinct there!

There's a South Korean Christian at my church (he's an exchange student at the moment). He carries around a Bible written in a language that I can't even read. But how glorifying it is to Christ that this is precisely the same word of God by which the rest of us know the Lord. Anyway, he tells us about South Korea sometimes, and I can perceive that these people are holding fast to the faith of Jesus. I've noticed that nowadays, as Americans gradually apostacize, these people are preaching to us. This is certainly evidence that God will always keep "7,000 men for himself who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

 

[edie19]

. . . . Anyway, he tells us about South Korea sometimes, and I can perceive that these people are holding fast to the faith of Jesus. I've noticed that nowadays, as Americans gradually apostacize, these people are preaching to us. . . . .

And we have a lot to learn from them.

Ken Jones (White Horse Inn, Greater Union Baptist Church) guested in the pulpit at my church a couple of months ago - in adult study we were talking at length about the church in the US as opposed to the church in other countries. Pastor Jones made the comment that we have a "penthouse view" of Christianity here. As Americans we pride ourselves on our education, but we've watered down our faith so much. If we look at the churches in some of these third world countries, churches where they have truly experienced persecution - we'd see churches that teach doctrine, that preach Christ and Him crucified. All too often here we're talking about felt needs, health and prosperity, "I'm a good person and I believe in God" or the whole "what can God do for me."

edie

 

[Nadiine]

And we have a lot to learn from them.

Ken Jones (White Horse Inn, Greater Union Baptist Church) guested in the pulpit at my church a couple of months ago - in adult study we were talking at length about the church in the US as opposed to the church in other countries. Pastor Jones made the comment that we have a "penthouse view" of Christianity here. As Americans we pride ourselves on our education, but we've watered down our faith so much. If we look at the churches in some of these third world countries, churches where they have truly experienced persecution - we'd see churches that teach doctrine, that preach Christ and Him crucified. All too often here we're talking about felt needs, health and prosperity, "I'm a good person and I believe in God" or the whole "what can God do for me."
edie

I rep'd you on this.

I just wrote about this in another area & planned on starting a new thread on this very thing (I just don't know where to put it )

What's even more alarming to me than your ACCURATE description is that when you do read parts of even the New Test., these same people will argue that those "harsh" things aren't even true or mean something else instead.
Just disregarding and altering any verses they come across that don't fit their view of "a loving God".

What they don't see is, by doing that, they render the entire bible ineffective and unfit to teach ANY TRUTH to them.
They've decided what's true and can't be taught anything about God even by His own word.
When something doesn't fit YOUR ideology, just discard it for the 'lie/falsity' that it is.

But to do that, the Bible is rendered self refuting, contradictory and powerless. If it is both True AND not True (in the areas you dislike), then even the verses you accept for truth have no foundation.

ie. Did Paul LIE when he gave his long list of moral commands in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 but tell the truth about salvation by Grace elsewhere?
If so, throw your Bible out because you can't count on anything he wrote as fact.

I'd like to submit that many of these 'subjective bible readers' reject the bible's teaching on WHO GOD IS.
In essence, they dislike and reject the Bible God by its own definition of Him to CREATE a new god that they prefer and understand.

IS THAT LOVE OF GOD? IF SO, WHICH ONE?

2 Pet. 1:20 "..no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved BY THE HOLY GHOST."

2 Pet. 3:16 "..as also in all his [Paul's] epistles in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction as they do also the rest of the scriptures."​

 

[Foundthelight]

I rep'd you on this.

I just wrote about this in another area & planned on starting a new thread on this very thing (I just don't know where to put it )

What's even more alarming to me than your ACCURATE description is that when you do read parts of even the New Test., these same people will argue that those "harsh" things aren't even true or mean something else instead.
Just disregarding and altering any verses they come across that don't fit their view of "a loving God".

What they don't see is, by doing that, they render the entire bible ineffective and unfit to teach ANY TRUTH to them.
They've decided what's true and can't be taught anything about God even by His own word.
When something doesn't fit YOUR ideology, just discard it for the 'lie/falsity' that it is.

But to do that, the Bible is rendered self refuting, contradictory and powerless. If it is both True AND not True (in the areas you dislike), then even the verses you accept for truth have no foundation.

ie. Did Paul LIE when he gave his long list of moral commands in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 but tell the truth about salvation by Grace elsewhere?
If so, throw your Bible out because you can't count on anything he wrote as fact.

I'd like to submit that many of these 'subjective bible readers' reject the bible's teaching on WHO GOD IS.
In essence, they dislike and reject the Bible God by its own definition of Him to CREATE a new god that they prefer and understand.

IS THAT LOVE OF GOD? IF SO, WHICH ONE?

2 Pet. 1:20 "..no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved BY THE HOLY GHOST."​

2 Pet. 3:16 "..as also in all his [Paul's] epistles in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction as they do also the rest of the scriptures."​

I have the same issue with today's church that you do. Here is a letter I recently sent to my fellow elders.

http://issues-in-the-pcusa.blogspot.com/

I really struggle with the apostacy in the church. I also find that most denoms teach falsly in one area or another.

We can quit and go elsewhere because of error, or we can stay and fight. I choose to stay and fight because I know that wherever I go there will be some teaching that is in error.

 

[edie19]

I have the same issue with today's church that you do. Here is a letter I recently sent to my fellow elders.

http://issues-in-the-pcusa.blogspot.com/

I really struggle with the apostacy in the church. I also find that most denoms teach falsly in one area or another.

We can quit and go elsewhere because of error, or we can stay and fight. I choose to stay and fight because I know that wherever I go there will be some teaching that is in error.

Excellent letter - well thought out, great Scriptural support. Thanks for sharing.

What's sad about the lack of sound teaching in our churches is the fact that we're only hurting ourselves. What will our church members have to stand on if they've been fed "gospel lite"? What will happen if the church in the US faces true persecution?

I'm not even sure who to blame it on - the colleges and seminaries who train our church leaders or the churches themselves who ordain them. All to be more "likeable" in the eyes of the world.

edie

 

[Foundthelight]

Excellent letter - well thought out, great Scriptural support. Thanks for sharing.

What's sad about the lack of sound teaching in our churches is the fact that we're only hurting ourselves. What will our church members have to stand on if they've been fed "gospel lite"? What will happen if the church in the US faces true persecution?

I'm not even sure who to blame it on - the colleges and seminaries who train our church leaders or the churches themselves who ordain them. All to be more "likeable" in the eyes of the world.

edie

If we should face true persecution in the US, those who are not of the elect will fall away. The rest will suffer for Christ's sake.

Church for many is just a social club. Give them an easy message, have good fellowship dinners, and don't ask them to commit to learning.

As for who is at fault the answer is easy. Satan. He gained his foothold when the churches decided that church growth is an important goal. They looked around and said; "We are not growing. What are we doing wrong?" Satan stepped in and whispered; "Perhaps your message is not relevant?" The churches then started studying what is relevant to the culture instead of the Bible.

We are reaping what was sown.

We need to turn from societal relevance back to preaching the truth and trusting that God will bring in the growth.

 

[holeinone]

Not wanting to debate universalism, as I know that would be against the rules. However is the thinking, or similar thinking becoming more popular amongst christians.

It's just I've noticed it all across CF lately. This whole concept of nobody will go to hell - eventually all will be saved somehow. Or the heaven and hell are the same place, it's all about your attitude to God whether it's good or bad. Or out and out universalism - sincerity in what you believe. But I guess the most prominant is the everyone gets there in the end kind of thinking.

Is it just me, or is this becoming very common.

Why is this so - is it just the niceness of it all? If so is the niceness thing what is leading to other decisions in the church (eg, without debating of course, ordaining homosexuals).

How do we encourage truth, and represent God faithfully in light of this. Is this why we are labelled judgemental, and accused of making judgements on people that God does not and would not make. ie that some won't be in heaven?

Sorry I am thinking out loud... just the way I am...

Love to hear some thoughts though.

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

 

[arunma]

If we should face true persecution in the US, those who are not of the elect will fall away. The rest will suffer for Christ's sake.

Church for many is just a social club. Give them an easy message, have good fellowship dinners, and don't ask them to commit to learning.

As for who is at fault the answer is easy. Satan. He gained his foothold when the churches decided that church growth is an important goal. They looked around and said; "We are not growing. What are we doing wrong?" Satan stepped in and whispered; "Perhaps your message is not relevant?" The churches then started studying what is relevant to the culture instead of the Bible.

We are reaping what was sown.

We need to turn from societal relevance back to preaching the truth and trusting that God will bring in the growth.

I agree. There's a time to talk about socially relevant issues, even in the church. But unfortunately, this is coming at the expense of preaching the Word. If one turns on TBN, one can see this in action. Virtually every show on that channel is about finances, politics, prosperity, or something else of that nature. Rarely do I see a Biblical message preached. I use this as an example because it seems to be a reflection of what is going on in the average American church.

Perhaps its time for another reformation?

 

[Foundthelight]

I agree. There's a time to talk about socially relevant issues, even in the church. But unfortunately, this is coming at the expense of preaching the Word. If one turns on TBN, one can see this in action. Virtually every show on that channel is about finances, politics, prosperity, or something else of that nature. Rarely do I see a Biblical message preached. I use this as an example because it seems to be a reflection of what is going on in the average American church.

Perhaps its time for another reformation?

It is past time for another reformation.

 

[edie19]

Perhaps its time for another reformation?

I can't recommend the current series of broadcasts on The Whitehorse Inn enough. Their year long topic, "The Romans Revolution." To date it has been fantastic - although I can hardly believe the answers to their "man on the street" questions. Sometimes I just have to yell at the radio the answers are so sadly lacking. If I were the one asking the questions I'd have a tough time not hitting the respondants upside the head with my microphone

edie