What's Up With the "Labeling?"

[brettnolan]

I'm sorry, I'm quickly being outnumbered and I can't keep up. And now I'm in a bad mood cause the Royals blew a game in the 8th.

I think you all are setting a higher standard for musicians (either in the spotlight or not) than you are for other Christians, including yourselves., which is why I asked Acts where she was staying close to the world.

I'm jumping around, I know...if Acts says the goal of Christian artists is to stay close to the world, I simply have to disagree. I'm sure there are some that are, and we can't see into the heart of ANY of them, but I firmly believe that most CCM'ers want to promote Christian values to as many people as possible. But they also understand that not everyone is reached the same way. Not only that, but they understand that they are dealing with real people with real issues and walking up to someone and saying, "Hi, is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?" in most cases is almost 100% guaranteed to make them run away from you (and God) as quickly as possible. This is why I'm not offended by any of the statements you listed. I find it hard to accept the premise that God ONLY wants us to bring others to Him by "preaching." If that's the case, then I'm afraid we're all wasting our time, as I don't see very many folks standing on the street corner on a soap box, preaching away.

Bleechers you said somewhere that it takes 30 seconds to share the gospel, then you can go on about your business, whatever they may be (more specifically you related it to singing your songs, but it can apply to anything). How do you know some of these people don't do that? Further, if ONE song in the concert presents an overt gospel message, doesn't that count?

I'll use Jars of Clay as an example, since someone has decided that they are now heathens. They have several songs that overtly speak of Jesus, one on the new album titled "Jesus' Blood Never Failed Me Yet." Why can't they use their artistic abilities to wade into other spiritual areas and still be called Christian artists? Solomon and the psalmists often went in other directions and we included their works IN THE BIBLE!

I'll use Skillet as another example since I've seen them live. Many of their songs have a subtle message, but in the middle of their concert, they stop and talk about Christ and sing "God of Wonders."

The obvious implication here is that those of us who believe that God has called all of us (muscians in this case) to be overt in message are somehow wrong.

I don't think this is implied at all. You are doing the opposite, implying (no, saying)that if you aren't overt, you can't be a Christian artist. What's wrong with simply promoting Christian values?

 

[bleechers]

In my dismay over the Phillies continued woes against the Marlins, I just accidentally erased my whole post!

I'll try to sum up: basically I agree with some of what you've said and disagree with some...

Agree: The actual "how" we preach the gospel can involve diversity. The gospel can be delivered via different ways of preaching. This is not a debate over soapboxes, pamphlets or lyrics. I am not able to judge anyone's heart BUT I can judge (and we are called to judge) words and actions.

Screaming in people's faces as they cross the street is not the only way to deliver the gospel... but then again, I wouldn't restrict any Christian's liberty to do it this way so long as it was done in love... and I can't judge anyone's heart.

I find it hard to accept the premise that God ONLY wants us to bring others to Him by "preaching." If that's the case, then I'm afraid we're all wasting our time, as I don't see very many folks standing on the street corner on a soap box, preaching away.

First, preaching doesn't necessarily equate to standing on a street corner. It is the clear delivery of the gospel. You may not want to accept that "preaching" is the only way to deliver the message, but that is exactly what God says.

"God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save some."

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God... how can they hear unless they have a preacher..."

If the goal is to bring folks to God, then we have to use God's method. The scriptures are "more powerful than any two-edged sword." I don't care how clever or wise we think we are, we can't improve on that. God has used the foolish things of this world ("the foolishness of preaching") to confound the wise.

It is not my opinion that God has only one way, it is His declaration.

Again, the method of preaching can differ, but the clear delivery of a message must be the end result. It's not a "figure it out" thing, it's a "tell them" thing.

but I firmly believe that most CCM'ers want to promote Christian values to as many people as possible.

What is a "Christian Value"? Does it matter eternally if goats act like sheep or if they become sheep. We have no message for the lost except the message of the cross. Our actions as sheep only prove that we are sheep, they don't change the nature of goats to sheep. The transformation of goat to sheep only happens by the gospel.

Why can't they use their artistic abilities to wade into other spiritual areas and still be called Christian artists? Solomon and the psalmists often went in other directions and we included their works IN THE BIBLE!

The only "spiritual areas" of any value are biblical spiritual areas. The only eternal truth there is, is Biblical truth ("sanctify them by thy truth, thy Word is truth."). The Psalms are prophetic in nature and are revealed in the New Testament.

The NT is the final Word. Revelation culminated in the NT. We have the clear gospel and the clear commands of God to the church. We don't go back and use the veiled methods and messages of the OT without explaining them. Jesus and Paul revealed the "mysteries" of the OT. We don't present a "mystery" to the lost, we preach the clear gospel to the lost.

Paul condemns the honoring of "shadows" when we have the clear light of truth. When we preach from the OT, we shed the light of the NT on it to relate the hidden truth. We never should set about to create "hidden truth."

I'll use Skillet as another example since I've seen them live. Many of their songs have a subtle message, but in the middle of their concert, they stop and talk about Christ and sing "God of Wonders."

What does "about Christ" mean? The Pope talks "about Christ" but his message is false. Mormons go door to door to talk "about Christ," but they're apostates. That's why when I talk about "Christian" music I am not talking about "Jesus per minute." It is the message related (regardless of the medium).

If Skillet gives a clear gospel message, great! But if all they do is promote some vague "Christan values," then they are not doing as the Bible commands.

I don't think this is implied at all. You are doing the opposite, implying (no, saying)that if you aren't overt, you can't be a Christian artist. What's wrong with simply promoting Christian values?

A fair question and I think I have addressed the "Christian Values" angle.

Let me use this to say again that preaching doesn't necessarily mean screaming in people's faces. No matter the medium, it is to be done in love. We are commanded to "speak the truth in love," but we must "speak the truth."

Jonah failed to warn Nineveh and by doing so he revealed both his cowadice and his hatred. It is an act of love to warn people. He also didn't deliver a "subtle" message hoping the Ninevites wouldn't be "turned off," yet still understand God's word for them.

We have to have faith that God's Word will do what He said it would do. By stating that the clear presentation of the gospel will run people off reveals a lack of faith in the Word of God. If people run off, that is God's business. We merely "sow the seed" (there's a parable again!), He brings it to fruition, not our clever devices and subtle messages.

Paul said that he was "not ashamed of the gospel" because he knew it to be "the power of God unto salvation." He said that he "failed not to deliver all that God had revealed to him" and the he was "free of the blood of all men."

They didn't whip him, stone him, jail him, shackle him and behead him for being "subtle" and/or "positive."

And nobody loved more than Paul.

You're right, we are never to be offensive, but the message will always be offensive.

It is the purest act of love to tell someone the gospel. Purposely not telling someone can only be attributed to either cowardice or hatred. I won't make the call, but if we're all honest, one of the two is why we (like Jonah) fail to do what God has commanded. And that includes me when I fail... but I don't defend it by saying that "failing" is my calling from God.jai

 

[kermit the toad]

I think a lot of it has to do with the negative stereotypes that have come to be associated with Christian music. Because of these stereotypes, artists want to be "just artists" so that they don't have their audience restricted. Of course, this is probably largely sales driven. Hmm...it's really hard to explain. I have this great answer all thought out in my head, but can't put it into words.

Having just said that I'm having difficulty putting things into words might make this next part sound ironic, but here I go. I can kind of empathize with the desire to be recognized as simply an artist rather than a specific kind of artist because I'm a writer myself and I don't want to be thought of as a Christian writer. I'm a writer who happens to be Christian. Of course, my faith informs much of my work, but it's not the focus of my work. Maybe that's the thing I was trying to express earlier: if your faith isn't the focus of your art, then you don't want to be called a "Christian artist" but if it is the focus, then you wouldn't mind be called by that title.

 

[Acts 17:11]

if Acts says the goal of Christian artists is to stay close to the world,

Uh,... Now I'm confused. I never said we need to stay close to the world - we need to give them the gospel. I'm not quite certain what "stay close to the world" means. Did I miss a post that explains it?

 

[Acts 17:11]

I heard these Newsboys songs the other day (most of you are already familiar with them, I'm sure) and thought they were very appropriate to the conversation. Again (rhetorical question coming up), why would a Christian artist NOT want to sing about Christ?

I'm Not Ashamed

I'm not ashamed to let you know
I want this light in me to show.
I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.

What are we sneaking around for?
Who are we trying to please?
Shrugging off sin, apologizing like we're spreading some kind of disease.
I'm saying, "No way. No way."

I'm not ashamed to let you know
I want this light in me to show.
I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.

This one says it's a lost cause – save your testimonies for churchtime.
The other ones state you'd better wait until you do a little market research.
I'm saying, "No way. No way."

I'm not ashamed to let you know
I want this light in me to show.
I'm not ashamed to speak the name of Jesus Christ.

God Is Not a Secret

You don't understand
This is not what you think it is
You don't get it man
You want to boil it down to show biz
Your in-depth research shows
Drop the God, emphasize the beat
I've heard that positive pop you dig
I'd rather be buried in wet concrete

Take back your free advice
I don't accept
I will not play those games
God is not a secret to be kept
God is not a secret to be kept

You don't understand
I'm not talking multiple choice
You don't get it man
If the cries offend you, find another voice
I am not running for office here
I won't keep purposefully vague
I've heard New Age Life-force trip
I'd rather be dipped in bubonic plague

Take back your free advice
I don't accept
I will not play those games
God is not a secret to be kept
God is not a secret to be kept

If we keep silent
If we mass defect
These very rocks will scream
God is not a secret to be kept
God is not a secret to be kept

And would I wash my hands again?
Would I deny my savior when
he hung inside the public square?
Did not my silence put him there?