What's the use?

[JohnR7]

Today at 08:55 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #31

I hardly think any Christian would claim that the Bible is ALL that God is. 

Jesus is the word that became flesh, everything we can know about the Father, we can find in the Son. Everything we need to know about Salvation, we can find in the Bible.

The Bible is not there to tell us everything there ever was to know about everything. The Bible is to show us how God wants to rescue, save, heal, deliver and redeem us. How He wants to fill us with His divine faith, hope and Love.




 

 

[Evee]

18th April 2003 at 04:22 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #3

For every one person searching for God there are hundreds that take it all too casually.
Remember that 1 person. that is who you are looking for.

 

 

      I agree with Follower of Christ.

  Don't go.

 

[JohnR7]

20th April 2003 at 04:17 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #27

Didn't you once talk about doing missionary work or something like that?

Our Bible collage is designed to train people to do missionary work.

You had best be ready to not only explain what you believe, but defend it. Not everyone will accept you with open arms...

They will if you got enough money to give them to build a church and a Bible school and so forth.

You had best consider these forums to be training. What will happen once you're a stranger in a strange land?

The pastor came back from the last mission trip to Africa and he told the people that next time he wants everyone ready to go. We need to allow the Holy Spirit to prepare us. He said that he is not going to baby sit anyone anymore, and if they are not prepared and if they are not ready to go, then don't go.

We have books we are required to read, and we have classes at the Bible collage that we are required to take. He use to take five or six hundred people to Isreal. Now he takes 100 people to Africa, but they are there to work, not sightsee or play.

So do you have a group of students that you take anywhere?

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 01:20 PM wblastyn said this in Post #39 

  Isn't creation just as much God's Word as the Bible is?

Creation or pre history takes up one chapter or 31 verses in the Bible. The rest of the Bible, from Chapter two on, deal with recorded history from 4000 bc on. The last 6000 years.

I see a lot of people around here who worry a lot about that one chapter and ignore the rest of the book.

 

[Nathan Poe]

And we dance this dance again...

Today at 10:14 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #37



''I hardly think any Christian would claim that the Bible is ALL that God is. ''



FOC:
God is far more than written words

Perhaps you should keep this in mind... 

''We do however claim that the Bible is true and anything that goes against the things that ARE written in it are wrong. ''

FOC:
It is FINAL in authority.
If it says jump, then we jump (and joyfully, I might add )


Nathan Poe;
''So if anyone says anything about the nature of God which is either not mentioned or contradicted, directly or indirectly, byt he Bible, then they're wrong.''


FOC:
Where this came from is beyond me.
I said ''God is far more than written words'' and
''It is FINAL in authority''

Your remarks were apples and Oranges to what my post said

My remarks are precisely what your posts say.

Perhaps I could illustrate this with a hypothetical situation:

I'm sitting in my chair one day, and I have a divine revelation. God appears to me in my living room.

He says to me, "Poe, I've been watching you for some time now. You're a scoffer. You're irreverent and disrespectful. You've challenged my followers' every belief, even in my very existence..."

Then He smiles. "Keep up the good work. Someone's got to keep my children on their toes..."

So I convert, and become a Christian. However, in accordance with God's own wishes, which He communicated to me personally, I continue my scoffing ways, pointing out errors, inconsistencies, and absurdities wherever I see them, and giving them the ridicule they deserve.

What would you say? let me guess...

First of all, you'd never believe this story if I told you. You'd think I was making it up. And even if you did believe that I had a revelation, you would probably claim that it was a deception from Satan, or some such nonsense...

And why? Because you would tell me that God would never send a message like the one I received. you would tell me that God hates scoffers, and would never encourage me to be one.

And how would you know? Because the Bible says so, that's how! You would quote chapter and verse at me, telling me about the fate of scoffers and blasphemers, even as I continued to insist that God spoke to me personally.

You would not believe in my revelation because it would contradict the description of God given in the Bible. And as we all know, God can only be what the Bible says He is...

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 01:58 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #40



You need to be more careful. You maybe surprised at what Nathan knows and understands. He just thinks he is called by God to strengthen your faith by making you question what you believe.

You know my methods, but not my motivation. I don't think God chose me to do what I do; I'd like to think it was my idea.

If God exists (which I consider to be iffy), and If he disapproved, he could easily stop me with a well-aimed thunderbolt. Since He's apparantly chosen not to smite me so far, I'm going to assume that He doesn't have a problem with me.

And why should He? Isn't your faith just a little stronger for taking it our into hostile territory?

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17

And for the record, if God does exist, and He does have a problem with me, would it be too much to ask for a warning shot on that thunderbolt? Maybe strike a spot ten feet in front of me on a cloudless day, for example?

I remember a pastors son once in california. He hated hyprocracy, so he conducted himself in a way he was going to find out right away if someone judged from the outward appearance of if they could look past that into the heart and what was on the inside.

Sounds like a spiritual version of John Griffin's Black Like Me.

If you look at Jesus' ministry, who did spend the most time with? The wealthy and respectable (pillars of their community), the scholarly and religious (moral guardians), or the dregs and outcasts (The scum of Israel)? 

Jesus Christ wasn't anywhere near as shallow as many of the people who have taken his name...

You concept of "ridiculous notion" is more his attempt at humor. 

Actually John, I am genuinely confused. FoC and I seem to be saying the same thing, but he insists that they're different...

FoC:

''We do however claim that the Bible is true and anything that goes against the things that ARE written in it are wrong. ''

NP:

''So if anyone says anything about the nature of God which is either not mentioned or contradicted, directly or indirectly, by the Bible, then they're wrong.''

One of us has missed something here...

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 02:18 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #43



Our Bible collage is designed to train people to do missionary work.

Ah, that must be it. I thought I remembered you saying that you personally were planning to go. my mistake.

They will if you got enough money to give them to build a church and a Bible school and so forth.

Is that why they welcome you, for the money? is that how people should be converted? In the old days, it was shiny beads and trinkets. Is faith for sale to the highest bidder?

The pastor came back from the last mission trip to Africa and he told the people that next time he wants everyone ready to go. We need to allow the Holy Spirit to prepare us. He said that he is not going to baby sit anyone anymore, and if they are not prepared and if they are not ready to go, then don't go.

Sounds like he's got a big job planned, and/or he was disappointed with the last batch of missionaries.

We have books we are required to read, and we have classes at the Bible collage that we are required to take. He use to take five or six hundred people to Isreal. Now he takes 100 people to Africa, but they are there to work, not sightsee or play.

Sounds like good honest work.

So do you have a group of students that you take anywhere?

As a matter of fact, our school has an annual tradition of a field trip to Salem, Mass. during the fall. I try to time it so that it coincides with our studies of Hawthorne. They tour the Salem Witch Museum as well as Hawthorne's home, which was the original "House of the Seven Gables."

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:23 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #47 Ah, that must be it. I thought I remembered you saying that you personally were planning to go. my mistake.

I have not gone with the church to Africa. I go to China and the Philippines and I am starting to get involved with a group in India.

Is that why they welcome you, for the money? is that how people should be converted? In the old days, it was shiny beads and trinkets. Is faith for sale to the highest bidder?

Not really the highest bidder, in some cases any bidder will do.

Do you work for free? Do you pay for the text books out of your pocket? Do you provide for the funds to pay for the building that you teach in? Someone has to pay for it. It is always a question of: where is the money going to come from to pay for it.

In the old days "missionarys" like the Spanish would plunder the countries. The problem now is that there is nothing left to plunder. Like in Africa, if they ever had anything to begin with, it is all gone now. There are villages in India that never had any money to begin with and they can not remember ever having a missionary come to their village, or anyone to sponser them in any way.

It is so nice of president Bush to want to help out the Iraqi people, when there is huge amounts of money in Iraq. How about the people who have the same problems in Africa but they do not have money. Is anybody willing to pay to fight for their freedom?

So, what do you think, who is going to pay for it? Who is going to pay the printing charges for the books, who is going to pay for the building for the church or the school? Who is going to pay the teacher to teach the students? I would be glad for you to solve that one for me.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:14 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #46

And for the record, if God does exist, and He does have a problem with me, would it be too much to ask for a warning shot on that thunderbolt? Maybe strike a spot ten feet in front of me on a cloudless day, for example? 

Careful, ten feet in front of you is almost a direct hit. Lightening really charges the ions all around you. I have been "almost" hit by lightening about three times. At least where I was within 25 feet of where it hit.

 

[Cantuar]

Christians who believe the Scriptures resent having theories that are essentially antagonistic to their beliefs and their associated world views taught to their children.

Most of the Christians in this country and certainly the vast majority of Christians in the rest of the developed world accept these theories. I assume that as Christians, they also believe the scriptures. Since the theories have no associated world view, as demonstrated by the fact that they're accepted by people of all world views (except fundamentalist monotheists, of course), there's no "associated world view" to teach.

If a teacher is ever found to be teaching "and these theories prove that God doesn't exist," that teacher isn't teaching science. Nor is a teacher who is teaching "and these theories prove that Goddidit." A major purpose of teaching science at school is to teach children about the current consensus about the various branches of science in the scientific community. As long as evolution by variation and selection is the consensus explanation for the diversity of life and long-term geological processes are the consensus explanation for the composition of the planet and so on, they'll be taught in school. If you want to avoid letting the current consensus into school science classes because it's insufficiently well aligned with the Bible, you'll have to change mainstream science so that scientific theories are replaced by theology. School science classes don't exist in isolation from the scientific community.

 

[Melchior]

18th April 2003 at 04:25 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #5
That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about people who come on here and attack something I love and care about very much. I love my Heavenly Father more than I love my earthy Father. More than I love my wife and family.

When people grieve the Holy Spirit of God, it grieves me.  

Because Christianity is dangerous just like most other religions are. It has been proven through history what religion can be used for. You may argue that your brand of Christianity is harmless, yet you discriminate verse homosexuals and promote an unequal relationship between men and women.

I love my wife and children more then anything else. I want that my children, and childrens' children can grow up in a world that is safe from the brainwashing influence of religion. I want that my grand-children are never controlled by othesr because they fell prey to a doomsday love cult.

And most of all, I want humanity to survive and thrive well past my years. I fear that with the growing rise of Christian fundamentalism, that some zealot will get impatient with the late arrival of the Rapture, and try to take matters into his own hands.

 

[Melchior]

19th April 2003 at 06:23 PM repentandbelieve said this in Post #12


JohnR7, in using this board I have found something that is really, really interesting.

There are a large number of unbelievers using this forum, who admittingly have no desire whatsoever for the gospel of Christ, that spend a tremendous amount of time and energy trying to undermine the faith of those who do have a desire for the gospel.

We are trying to appeal to those with an open mind who have come here find answers to their doubts. It is important that these individuals are exposed to the truth so that we don't have another generation of mindless believers.

I find this really interesting in light of the fact that this is a Christain forum. To me it testifies to the fact that the world we live in is very much hostile toward the gospel.

If only this were true. Sadly the large majority of the industrial world believes to a lesser or greater extent in the holyness of the Bible.

That in itself, I count as a valuable truth to be aware of because it helps me to remain mindful of what we are up against.  

If its fundeamentalism your talking about, then your fight is a tough one, as outside the US there is not much support for it. But if your talking about Christianity in general, then your not up against much. But if the census trends continue, this will be changing very soon.

 

[Melchior]

20th April 2003 at 05:03 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #15

Your post is a real blessing. One thing I noticed is they can not admit they are hostile against the gospel, because if they were to admit that, they would be admiting the gospel is true.

So really in effect their very attitude testifys against them.

Obvious flawed logic here, but I'll still respond to it.

If in hostility, you mean that we believe that the Gospels as well as the rest of the Bible is man-made fiction, and not the infalliable word of God, then your correct.

But much like a gun, the bible in itself is not the problem. The problem are the people who use it to subvert and control others. For example, putting the Bible and God in front of your own family in an attempt to extort time and money to the Church.

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 02:55 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #45

And we dance this dance again...



Perhaps you should keep this in mind... 




My remarks are precisely what your posts say.

Perhaps I could illustrate this with a hypothetical situation:

I'm sitting in my chair one day, and I have a divine revelation. God appears to me in my living room.

He says to me, "Poe, I've been watching you for some time now. You're a scoffer. You're irreverent and disrespectful. You've challenged my followers' every belief, even in my very existence..."

Then He smiles. "Keep up the good work. Someone's got to keep my children on their toes..."

So I convert, and become a Christian. However, in accordance with God's own wishes, which He communicated to me personally, I continue my scoffing ways, pointing out errors, inconsistencies, and absurdities wherever I see them, and giving them the ridicule they deserve.

What would you say? let me guess...

First of all, you'd never believe this story if I told you. You'd think I was making it up. And even if you did believe that I had a revelation, you would probably claim that it was a deception from Satan, or some such nonsense...

And why? Because you would tell me that God would never send a message like the one I received. you would tell me that God hates scoffers, and would never encourage me to be one.

And how would you know? Because the Bible says so, that's how! You would quote chapter and verse at me, telling me about the fate of scoffers and blasphemers, even as I continued to insist that God spoke to me personally.

You would not believe in my revelation because it would contradict the description of God given in the Bible. And as we all know, God can only be what the Bible says He is...

''Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. ''
(2 Chronicles 18:20-22 KJV)



And in being used to decieve those that refuse Gods truth, you may very well already be being used.

Although, you'd never know until it was too late.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 08:16 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #54

Although, you'd never know until it was too late.

And vise-versa.

 

[Follower of Christ]

FOC:
''We do however claim that the Bible is true and anything that goes against the things that ARE written in it are wrong. ''

NP:

''So if anyone says anything about the nature of God which is either not mentioned or contradicted, directly or indirectly, by the Bible, then they're wrong.''


It is not the same.

My example states ''anything that goes against scripture is wrong'' while your example
states ''any said about the nature of God whether its mentioned in scripture or not is wrong''

you surely cannot tell me that you see no difference in those 2 statements.
If you can say that then you are far less intelligent than I originally gave you credit for

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 04:46 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #48


Not really the highest bidder, in some cases any bidder will do.

Do you work for free? Do you pay for the text books out of your pocket? Do you provide for the funds to pay for the building that you teach in? Someone has to pay for it. It is always a question of: where is the money going to come from to pay for it.

In the old days "missionarys" like the Spanish would plunder the countries. The problem now is that there is nothing left to plunder. Like in Africa, if they ever had anything to begin with, it is all gone now. There are villages in India that never had any money to begin with and they can not remember ever having a missionary come to their village, or anyone to sponser them in any way.

It is so nice of president Bush to want to help out the Iraqi people, when there is huge amounts of money in Iraq. How about the people who have the same problems in Africa but they do not have money. Is anybody willing to pay to fight for their freedom?

So, what do you think, who is going to pay for it? Who is going to pay the printing charges for the books, who is going to pay for the building for the church or the school? Who is going to pay the teacher to teach the students? I would be glad for you to solve that one for me.

I think you've missed my point. I wasn't referring to your motivations for doing the missionary work, but their motivations for converting. If they're only worshipping because you built them a nice new church and Bible school, is their conversion sincere? What if a Muslim group comes along a week later and builds a bigger mosque?

That's what I meant by "faith going to the highest bidder."

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 04:56 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #49



Careful, ten feet in front of you is almost a direct hit. Lightening really charges the ions all around you. I have been "almost" hit by lightening about three times. At least where I was within 25 feet of where it hit.

Hmmm... maybe God doesn't approve of what you've been doing...

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 08:57 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #58

Hmmm... maybe God doesn't approve of what you've been doing...

You think He is up there throwing lightening bolts at people?

I was thinking more along the line that there is something about me that attracts lightening.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 08:55 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #57 That's what I meant by "faith going to the highest bidder."

Yeah, it all depends on what you have to offer them and put on the table. We have life, health, healing, the miracle power of God, and so on. What do the muslims have to offer?

People are usually pretty happy to give up whatever it is they have, because we offer them something better. Of course in Africa they do not have much, some of them could die at anytime, what they have to eat does not look edible. There are those who are already missing body parts. Just to give them a little bit of love and hope is quite a bit. Just to give them anything at all is something when most people try and take away what little bit they have, to where they have almost nothing left to take.

I was going to ask you. Are you up for a discussion on The Odyssey, Hannibal's Code or better yet The Epic of Gilgamesh?