What's the point?

[DArceri]

nothing was differant about her flesh. the only thing that was differant was she was born without original sin, that rests in the soul not the flesh

So Mary, not being born of sin, must not have gone through labor pains then. In Gen 3, God's curse on the woman is labor pains, right? So, if this is true then how can Mary be the woman in Rev 12. You can't have your cake and eat it too!!!

Gen 3:16
To the woman he said,

"I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.


Rev12:1,2
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.




.

 

[Photini]

St John of San Francisco addressed the idea of the Immaculate Concention this way...."through the fall of Adam and Eve, all of the human race inherited death, becoming enslaved to the devil through the passions. The progeny of Adam and Eve are not guilty of their first parents’ tasting of the fruit; we are not being punished for this first sin or 'original sin.' If, for the sake of argument, we maintain the invalid heterodox teaching that the Theotokos was preserved from this 'original sin,' that would make God unmerciful and unjust. If God preserved her, why then does He not purify all men? But then that would have meant saving men before their birth, apart from their will. This teaching would then deny all her virtues. After all, if Mary, even in the womb of Anna, when she could not even desire anything either good or evil, was preserved by God’s grace from every impurity, and then by that grace was preserved from sin even after her birth, then in what does her virtue consist? She would have been placed in the state of being unable to sin. “The Virgin, as a true daughter of Adam and Eve, also inherited death. She was not in a state of never being able to die. Thus, St. John of Damascus writes on the occasion of her Dormition, ‘O pure Virgin, sprung from mortal loins, thine end was conformable to nature.’"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thus, St. John of Damascus writes on the occasion of her Dormition, ‘O pure Virgin, sprung from mortal loins, thine end was conformable to nature.’"

Greetings! How do you know he wasn't just referring to her virginity up to the birth of JESUS instead of afterwards?
Afterall, he doesn't state 'O pure Perpetual Virgin'. Just curious.

Go Tyndale!

 

[Photini]

Greetings! How do you know he wasn't just referring to her virginity up to the birth of JESUS instead of afterwards?
Afterall, he doesn't state 'O pure Perpetual Virgin'. Just curious.

Go Tyndale!

Hi LLOJ,

In that particular sentence, he was referring to her death. But we do know that St John of Damascus believed and taught the PV of Mary. Here's an example:

How shall I understand the prediction of prophets ? Shall I not refer them to thee, as we can prove them to be true? What is the fleece of David which receives the Son of the Almighty God, co-eternal and co-equal with His Father, as rain falls upon the soil? Does it not signify thee in thy bright shining? Who is the virgin foretold by Isaias who should conceive and bear a Son, God ever present with us, that is, who being born a man should remain God? What is Daniel's mountain from which arose Christ, the Corner-Stone, not made by the hand of man ? Is it not thee, conceiving without man and still remaining a virgin? Let the inspired Ezechiel come forth and show us the closed gate, sealed by the Lord, and not yielding, according to his [163] prophecy--let him point to its fulfilment in thee. The Lord of all came to thee, and taking flesh did not open the door of thy virginity. The seal remains intact. The prophets, then, foretell thee. Angels and apostles minister to thee, O Mother of God, ever Virgin, and John the virgin apostle. Angels and the spirits of the just, patriarchs and prophets surround thee to-day in thy departure to thy Son. Apostles watched over the countless host of the just who were gathered together from every corner of the earth by the divine commands, as a cloud around the divine and living Jerusalem, singing hymns of praise to thee, the author of our Lord's life-giving body.

From Three Sermons on the Dormition of the Virgin


But alas, this is off topic since this thread isn't about perpetual virginity but rather about the Immaculate Conception.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Angels and apostles minister to thee, O Mother of God, ever Virgin, and John the virgin apostle.

Ok. Thanks.

Go Tyndale!

 

[narnia59]

So, the point is that for Jesus to be born without sin, His mother had to be without sin or immaculately conceived?

That is not, nor has it ever been even remotely the point.

 

[narnia59]

So Mary, not being born of sin, must not have gone through labor pains then. In Gen 3, God's curse on the woman is labor pains, right? So, if this is true then how can Mary be the woman in Rev 12. You can't have your cake and eat it too!!!

Gen 3:16
To the woman he said,

"I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.


Rev12:1,2
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.




.

Can we not remotely consider metaphorical labor pains? Scripture is full of them. If we're going to read that scripture literally rather than as symbolic imagery, don't you think those stars were a little bit heavy for a crown, and having the moon under her feet and clothed with the suns seems perhaps a little 'figurative'?

Do you believe this refers to Mary? If not, whatever you propose the image represents, are you willing to still say that the birth pains must be literal, and not metaphorical?