What's the point?

[Standing Up]

Leaving aside the question whether Mary was or was not immaculately conceived, why does it matter whether she was or was not? What is the point if she was and what happens if she wasn't? What happens if she wasn't and what happens if she was?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What's the point?

Is that a trick question?

Jack Wilson: "There is no point to this"
Philoe Beddoe: "I ain't doing it for points"

 

[E.C.]

Prophecy fulfillment with regards to the Messiah.



Immaculate Conception is not Orthodox. Thus, that bit does not matter in this post.

 

[katherine2001]

Actually, the EO don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. There is absolutely nothing sinful about sex within marriage. Anna and Joachim were married (and had been for many years) and there was nothing wrong with conceiving Mary the usual way.

 

[prodromos]

If Mary's flesh was in any way different from the rest of humanity's flesh, then Christ did not take our flesh to Hades but only Mary's. Thus, for us death has not been defeated since it was only Mary's flesh which was redeemed.
Immaculate Conception of Mary = no salvation for the rest of us.

John

 

[Kristos]

What they said

 

[Rhamiel]

nothing was differant about her flesh. the only thing that was differant was she was born without original sin, that rests in the soul not the flesh

 

[Standing Up]

What's the point?

Is that a trick question?


quote]

No trick, just trying to understand. Phrased in another manner: What does it matter? Why does it matter if Mary was immaculately conceived or not?

 

[Rhamiel]

I think it is the truth, so I want people to know the truth, I want my brothers and sisters in Christ to know the truth.
others think it is a lie and are bothered by Christians who hold onto superstitions

I do not think it has any barring on salvation, except that if people know the truth it might be a slight bit harder for the Prince of Lies to trick them

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think it is the truth, so I want people to know the truth, I want my brothers and sisters in Christ to know the truth.
others think it is a lie and are bothered by Christians who hold onto superstitions

I do not think it has any barring on salvation, except that if people know the truth it might be a slight bit harder for the Prince of Lies to trick them

Prince of lies........coming for Jesus......

John 14:30 "Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming, the of the world, this, Chief/arcwn <758>, and in Me not he is having anything.

John 16:11 "About yet judging, that the Chief/arcwn <758> of the world, this, has been judged

1 Corinthians 2:6 Wisdom yet we are speaking in the ones being mature/perfect. Wisdom yet not of the Age, the-this, nor of the Chiefs/arc-ontwn <758> of the Age, the-this, the ones coming to naught.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think it is the truth, so I want people to know the truth, I want my brothers and sisters in Christ to know the truth.
others think it is a lie and are bothered by Christians who hold onto superstitions

I do not think it has any barring on salvation, except that if people know the truth it might be a slight bit harder for the Prince of Lies to trick them

Nicely put, indeed. My only interest in the matter is the same, that Catholics realize they have been sold a bill of superstitious goods which has no relationship to truth. The obvious logical deduction is that if Mary needed to be immaculately conceived, so did her mother, all the way back to Eve. If not, then God did not need to immaculately conceive anyone. Does it not seem just a bit strange that only one denomnation has elevated this superstition to the level of a dogma which is utterly essential to one's salvation?

 

[narnia59]

Nicely put, indeed. My only interest in the matter is the same, that Catholics realize they have been sold a bill of superstitious goods which has no relationship to truth. The obvious logical deduction is that if Mary needed to be immaculately conceived, so did her mother, all the way back to Eve. If not, then God did not need to immaculately conceive anyone. Does it not seem just a bit strange that only one denomnation has elevated this superstition to the level of a dogma which is utterly essential to one's salvation?

The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Mary "needing" to be conceived without sin in order for Christ to be, so the basis for your logical deduction does not exist.

 

[Qoheleth]

Nicely put, indeed. My only interest in the matter is the same, that Catholics realize they have been sold a bill of superstitious goods which has no relationship to truth. The obvious logical deduction is that if Mary needed to be immaculately conceived, so did her mother, all the way back to Eve. If not, then God did not need to immaculately conceive anyone. Does it not seem just a bit strange that only one denomnation has elevated this superstition to the level of a dogma which is utterly essential to one's salvation?

Why limit Gods power and will? Are you saying we understand all of Gods ways? Do you have Scripture for that?

How can you put the limitation on God (by your logical deduction) that if the Blessed Mother was at a moment in time conceived immaculately then everyone before her had to have been conceived in the same way????

As to this being "utterly essential" to salvation, please show us where the Catholic Church denies salvation to all Christians that do not hold this belief, and in essence all Christians except Catholics will be in Hell because of it?




Q

 

[Rhamiel]

bbbbb

Nicely put, indeed. My only interest in the matter is the same, that Catholics realize they have been sold a bill of superstitious goods which has no relationship to truth. The obvious logical deduction is that if Mary needed to be immaculately conceived, so did her mother, all the way back to Eve. If not, then God did not need to immaculately conceive anyone. Does it not seem just a bit strange that only one denomnation has elevated this superstition to the level of a dogma which is utterly essential to one's salvation?

Mary was made without mortal sin, her parents were created with mortal sin like anybody else, Jesus could have just came to Earth a fully grown man, but He choose to take His humanity from His mother. It was always believed by the Church and was not made a Dogma untill it was attacked without end, calling it a Dogma was an attemnt to end debate, not make it harder for people to find salvation

 

[prodromos]

nothing was differant about her flesh. the only thing that was differant was she was born without original sin, that rests in the soul not the flesh

This is not unlike the heresy that separates Christ's human and divine natures and makes Him two separate people. When we speak of Christ taking his flesh from Mary we refer to Him receiving His human nature from her. "Flesh" here refers to the whole man, body, soul and spirit (this is an example of "synecdoche" which is often used in the NT). People sin, not their souls or their flesh.

John

 

[prodromos]

Jesus could have just came to Earth a fully grown man

For what purpose? If it wasn't our flesh (body, soul, spirit) which Christ took to the grave, rose with again and ascended with into heaven, then we have no hope of salvation because it would not have been our flesh for which death was defeated, nor would it be our flesh which has been glorified through His ascension into heaven. I have a suspicion that what you stated does not even jive with Catholic soteriology.

John

 

[Rhamiel]

When we speak of Christ taking his flesh from Mary we refer to Him receiving His human nature from her.

Yes, and was His human nature broken and sinful? no so he recieved His human nature from Mary and He did not have original sin.
I am sorry but I do not understand the easten christian view of OS

 

[prodromos]

Yes, and was His human nature broken and sinful?

By taking on our fallen (not sinful) nature, He who is without sin healed our nature by conforming it with His.

I am sorry but I do not understand the easten christian view of OS

All it requires is your shedding of the errors of some of our Latin Fathers. I was raised in the Anglican Church, so if I can understand it so can you

John

 

[Standing Up]

So, the point is that for Jesus to be born without sin, His mother had to be without sin or immaculately conceived?