What's the difference?

[ghs1994]

Faith without works is not faith at all. We can thank Augustine for the faith "alone" teaching that reappeared at the time of the reformation. The early Christians had no problem seeing faith and works as interconnected. It becomes salvation when one has a loving obedient relationship with Jesus.

So what you are saying is that you must earn your salvation by works in Christ. Is that what you are saying?

 

[catlover]

Well...talk is cheap...if one reads James Chapter 2 one would see faith without works is dead...

 

[Danfrey]

So what you are saying is that you must earn your salvation by works in Christ. Is that what you are saying?

We are saved because Jesus died on the cross as our sacrafice. I have never met any Anabaptist who thinks they are earning their way to heaven through works. I covered this is my last post. Just because someone believes that works are a necessary part of salvation, does not mean they are trying to earn their salvation.

If you study the history of the church, you will find that the idea that faith and works are seperate issues was unheard of until the time of Constantine. Paul argues against works of the law such as which are very different than the commands of Jesus. If you read the book of Matthew, you will see that Jesus spends several chapters talking about living our faith.

 

[ghs1994]

We are saved because Jesus died on the cross as our sacrafice. I have never met any Anabaptist who thinks they are earning their way to heaven through works. I covered this is my last post. Just because someone believes that works are a necessary part of salvation, does not mean they are trying to earn their salvation.

If you study the history of the church, you will find that the idea that faith and works are seperate issues was unheard of until the time of Constantine. Paul argues against works of the law such as which are very different than the commands of Jesus. If you read the book of Matthew, you will see that Jesus spends several chapters talking about living our faith.

So then how is one saved? Is it faith in Christ for salvation with works being the evidence, or is it faith plus works for salvation?

It sounds to me like the Anabaptist believes that you must have works or else salvation will not take place.

 

[catlover]

It sounds to me like the Anabaptist believes that you must have works or else salvation will not take place.

Anabaptists are simply following The Bible.

 

[ghs1994]

Anabaptists are simply following The Bible.

So then you are saying is that without works, salvation has not happened? Is that what you are saying?

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I'm curious as to what you make of this passage. According to this, it's not following the bible.

All I'm saying is that works are not necessary for salvation, but they are inseperable concerning evidence of faith in Christ. I don't understand why there is a belief that works must be done also in order to achieve salvation. It almost sounds Catholic.

Please be patient with me, I'm only trying to understand where you are coming from. I appreciate your patience with another brother.

 

[catlover]

So then you are saying is that without works, salvation has not happened? Is that what you are saying?

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I'm curious as to what you make of this passage. According to this, it's not following the bible.

All I'm saying is that works are not necessary for salvation, but they are inseperable concerning evidence of faith in Christ. I don't understand why there is a belief that works must be done also in order to achieve salvation. It almost sounds Catholic.

Please be patient with me, I'm only trying to understand where you are coming from. I appreciate your patience with another brother.

No sweat, I like gabbing with people about beliefs etc. I should warn you, though, I am not an Anabaptist, just to let you know. I am not Roman Catholic either, I am searching for a church. As far as I am concerned these folks, though, Anabaptists, have "more truth" than other Christian beliefs.



I have attended churches where one says a prayer and they do whatever. They behave nicely on Sunday and sing on Sunday, but six days a week they behave according to the world. I find that belief to be wrong. It's not in the Bible.

We are to:
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Phil. 2:12, 13, KJV)
****************************************************************************8
James 2:2

14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

 

[ghs1994]

I like discussing scripture also. I'm not much for debating because I believe it to be fruitless.

I fully and wholeheartedly agree that works and salvation are inseperable. Works gives us evidence that the nature of man is no longer in control, but that the Spirit of God is. But what I will never fully understand is why some believe in a works based faith because it seems that the Anabaptists believe that without works, you haven't been saved and the bible teaches the exact opposite. Works are simply the evidence of a born again Christian, those who have opportunity to actually do the work of the Spirit. But what about the man who never gets that chance to work, but believes; what happens to him? If salvation is by faith and works, then the man goes to hell because he didn't complete the cycle.

Look at Paul, who did no works at all, and yet God called Him according to grace because Paul's works were against the Lord, even though he thought he was doing right. When grace fell upon Him, he went and became the most popular apostle of all time.

Look at those who came to Christ. They did nothing to earn their healings, yet because of the grace in Christ, he healed them. They did not have the right, but because of His mercy, they were healed.

It is according to grace and not works based faith. It is very evident throughout the entire bible of God's grace upon His people.

I'm not a Calvinist who believes we have no say in this and I am far from the Arminian theology as well. I just don't like it when I see a group of people, not implying you all, who will take a systematic theology and try to make the bible fit their theology.

 

[MrJim]

I fully and wholeheartedly agree that works and salvation are inseperable.

One of the things that can happen is we can appear to be a little to far to the "works" end of the scale when viewed against something else. You may be familiar with the "Lordship Salvation" debate a decade or so ago where this very theme was discussed: Does salvation really change someone into something new???? Or can a person believe a creed and that's enough?

Anabaptists earnestly seek to see a whole conversion in our lives, and others viewing will think, gee they talk a lot about works, but it is only as evidence of new life.

From Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

It is not so different when you talk with the more conservative baptists (whatever flavor) when discussing the nature of the Christian life. Something that is to separate the anabaptists/baptists/quakers from the mainline denoms is the nature of Christian disicipleship. There is an idea on the one hand, particularly amongst sacramental churches (and I say it's an idea, not that it is particularly taught) that as long as you do what the church asks-show up Sunday, take communion, and be "good"-that is all that is required of you. This idea has obviously crept into the "Free Church" traditions, but this idea of an active discipleship, to do the "all things" of scripture, is one of the things that separated us from them during the Reformation. And there have been some problems (dare I say heresies?) where works-based salvation has arisen--to the point that if you aren't wearing this particular coat style or something then you are out of fellowship with God. And anabaptist churches aren't the only ones guilty of this--fundamentalist churches have been guilty of this also.

The anabaptists don't teach that we are earning anything-that is counter to the nature of grace. We teach a simple love-obedient relationship. It does not discount any of the "faith" or "grace" teachings, we simple see them, as you say, as inseperable.