What's the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[Keachian]

In context, did He come to seek and save you?

Because of what God has done in me, I acknowledge my sinfulness, I acknowledge my lostness. I don't think of it as something I have attained but a marvelous gift that God has given me, I am not deserving of this grace, this love that God has shown me.

 

[JackSparrow]

You simply haven't addressed his point. If God knows all prior to it happening, and approves of it, then He has decreed it. That is a logical, flowing statement. All you have posited is "I don't believe that". I would like to know what could possibly replace the logic in his statement.

Ill have a go at this. I am no expert so shoot my reasoning down but not me.

A dice has six sides. Shake it throw it and you have a 1/6 chance of predicting the out come.

But we have a 100% certainty of predicting - foreknowing - what cannot happen e.g we can be 100% certain the result will never be a 7.

My analogy is this. God puts the human race in a defined environment. God knows 100% that man cannot build a tower of babel within a given time frame. He can therefore let man have total free will to say, work hard or slack off. God intervening at a time decided by him, in the future , he can know with absolute certainty the outcome.

IMO ( please disagree. thats fine) God does not have to decree all things. He can leave his creation in all its "finite" free will. Being finite his plans will never be thwarted by man.

OK its an analogy. What bothers me is when humans talk as if they know the mind of God. I believe it is not knowable.

 

[Arcoe]

You simply haven't addressed his point. If God knows all prior to it happening, and approves of it, then He has decreed it. That is a logical, flowing statement. All you have posited is "I don't believe that". I would like to know what could possibly replace the logic in his statement.

Let's see, God knows all prior to it happening, and APPROVES it, then decrees it. In this vein, God approves murder, adultery, rape, and all other atrocious acts of man. I think one will find just the opposite in His word. God does not approve of such things, but rather, He hates them and strongly charges man not to do them.

The logic is flawed in God's approval of evil.

 

[Keachian]

Let's see, God knows all prior to it happening, and APPROVES it, then decrees it.

This premise is incorrect, God doesn't approve all things, there are two things God does in relation to man's sins, he either intervenes such that we do good and approves of this action, or he does not intervene and we are left to our own devices and so we sin and God disapproves.

 

[Arcoe]

This premise is incorrect, God doesn't approve all things, there are two things God does in relation to man's sins, he either intervenes such that we do good and approves of this action, or he does not intervene and we are left to our own devices and so we sin and God disapproves.

So, what you saying is that JesusFreak lied when he said God approves. You all are going to have to get on the same page or your kingdom will not stand.

Here is what I read from the Bible as far as what God does in relation to man's sins:
1. He commands that man repent of his sins for forgiveness.
2. He commands that man turn away from his sins and make himself a new heart.
3. He commands that man clean the inside of the cup (or his heart, if you will).
4. He commands man to flee sin.
5. He commands man to put away the filth of the flesh.
6. He commands man to put off the old man.
7. Those who do not remove sin from themselves will die in this condition, and will not inherit the kingdom.

He intervenes through His commands for us to rid ourselves of sin. However, it is up to us to do this with His help of ourselves. Then and only then, will man be able to do good. There is no back door to get into heaven if sin remains in our hearts.

 

[Keachian]

So, what you saying is that JesusFreak lied when he said God approves. You all are going to have to get on the same page or your kingdom will not stand.

Going back to the original quote:

"Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them, that is, He either is willing that they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them."​

It is not saying that God's approval makes something right or wrong it is talking about what God wills to happen and I agree with the sentiment.

Here is what I read from the Bible as far as what God does in relation to man's sins:
1. He commands that man repent of his sins for forgiveness.

Yep.

2. He commands that man turn away from his sins and make himself a new heart.

Create in me a clean heart O God
[God] will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

God is the one doing the making of new hearts.

3. He commands that man clean the inside of the cup (or his heart, if you will).
4. He commands man to flee sin.
5. He commands man to put away the filth of the flesh.
6. He commands man to put off the old man.
7. Those who do not remove sin from themselves will die in this condition, and will not inherit the kingdom.

He intervenes through His commands for us to rid ourselves of sin. However, it is up to us to do this with His help of ourselves. Then and only then, will man be able to do good. There is no back door to get into heaven if sin remains in our hearts.

Why are you so sure of yourself and humanity in general that we are able or want to do anything like what God desires of us without God first changing us?

 

[Arcoe]

Going back to the original quote:

"Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them, that is, He either is willing that they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them."​

It is not saying that God's approval makes something right or wrong it is talking about what God wills to happen and I agree with the sentiment.

Here is the quote of JesusFreak to which I was referring:

You simply haven't addressed his point. If God knows all prior to it happening, and approves of it, then He has decreed it. That is a logical, flowing statement. All you have posited is "I don't believe that". I would like to know what could possibly replace the logic in his statement.

Create in me a clean heart O God
[God] will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

God is the one doing the making of new hearts.

Here is the passage to which I was referring:

Ezekiel 18:31 -
Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!

Why are you so sure of yourself and humanity in general that we are able or want to do anything like what God desires of us without God first changing us?

I never said we can do it without God changing us first. Man is utterly helpless without His help. But wanting to change, once confronted with the truth, must come from us. No matter how much God wants to us to anything good, if we don't want this in our hearts, it isn't going to happen.

 

[Keachian]

Here is the quote of JesusFreak to which I was referring:

You simply haven't addressed his point. If God knows all prior to it happening, and approves of it, then He has decreed it. That is a logical, flowing statement. All you have posited is "I don't believe that". I would like to know what could possibly replace the logic in his statement.

Context is everything, what matters is what he was referring to, you are treating it as if he is saying that God decrees that good is bad, which is not what anyone in this thread is saying.

Here is the passage to which I was referring:

Ezekiel 18:31 -
Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!

I probably need some more time to study.

I never said we can do it without God changing us first. Man is utterly helpless without His help. But wanting to change, once confronted with the truth, must come from us. No matter how much God wants to us to anything good, if we don't want this in our hearts, it isn't going to happen.

God places within us a desire to change ourselves, a desire to seek after him, we want it in our hearts after this.