What's the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[Charis kai Dunamis]

As you can see, both views say that God elects people before the foundation of the world.

Arminians say that the reason for God's choice of you was because he foresaw obedience in you.

Calvinists say that the reason for God's choice of you was grace alone, as there is no such thing, apart from saving grace, as obedience in you.

Any questions? Can we move on now? Can we quit pretending that only Calvinists believe that God elects people before the foundation of the world? Because that would be fantastic.

We all believe that election is based on foreknowledge, whether we know it or not. The question is to where the foreknowledge logically comes from. Calvinists/Augustinian Predestinarians would say foreknowledge of the decree is a product of the decree itself, and therefore all that happens is in accordance with foreknowledge. Arminians would say foreknowledge is an effect of man's volition; man's choice is the ultimate cause of God's foreknowledge, since he looks ahead and foresees their free will decision (which is apparently an eternal decision?). God's foreknowledge is thus confused with foresight.

 

[Skala]

We all believe that election is based on foreknowledge, whether we know it or not. The question is to where the foreknowledge logically comes from. Calvinists/Augustinian Predestinarians would say foreknowledge of the decree is a product of the decree itself, and therefore all that happens is in accordance with foreknowledge. Arminians would say foreknowledge is an effect of man's volition; man's choice is the ultimate cause of God's foreknowledge, since he looks ahead and foresees their free will decision (which is apparently an eternal decision?). God's foreknowledge is thus confused with foresight.

Well said, thanks for this.

I agree that some confuse foreknowledge with foresight. Hence the binoculars

 

[guuila]

We all believe that election is based on foreknowledge, whether we know it or not. The question is to where the foreknowledge logically comes from. Calvinists/Augustinian Predestinarians would say foreknowledge of the decree is a product of the decree itself, and therefore all that happens is in accordance with foreknowledge. Arminians would say foreknowledge is an effect of man's volition; man's choice is the ultimate cause of God's foreknowledge, since he looks ahead and foresees their free will decision (which is apparently an eternal decision?). God's foreknowledge is thus confused with foresight.

So is it safe to say that our Arminian brethren believe that God actually 'learns' information about us that he didn't know? He has to 'figure out' who will cooperate with his salvation plan by looking into the future, thus he discovers some facts about his creation that he didn't know prior to the looking into the future. The only logical conclusion I can come to if I believe this, is that since things happen apart from God's decree, I really can't have assurance that God will deliver on his promises in Scripture since some other entity can make something happen outside of his decree and thus introduce the possibility that his will can be thwarted.

If God isn't absolutely sovereign in determining every single event that occurs in the universe, God isn't God at all, and he doesn't exist. If there is one rogue particle in existence, we have great reason for concern.

 

[elman]

We all believe that election is based on foreknowledge, whether we know it or not. The question is to where the foreknowledge logically comes from. Calvinists/Augustinian Predestinarians would say foreknowledge of the decree is a product of the decree itself, and therefore all that happens is in accordance with foreknowledge. Arminians would say foreknowledge is an effect of man's volition; man's choice is the ultimate cause of God's foreknowledge, since he looks ahead and foresees their free will decision (which is apparently an eternal decision?). God's foreknowledge is thus confused with foresight.

If God foresees our being loving rather than unloving and elects on that basis, how is this confusing God's foreknowledge with foresight. Explain what you mean by that please.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

So is it safe to say that our Arminian brethren believe that God actually 'learns' information about us that he didn't know? He has to 'figure out' who will cooperate with his salvation plan by looking into the future, thus he discovers some facts about his creation that he didn't know prior to the looking into the future. The only logical conclusion I can come to if I believe this, is that since things happen apart from God's decree, I really can't have assurance that God will deliver on his promises in Scripture since some other entity can make something happen outside of his decree and thus introduce the possibility that his will can be thwarted.

If God isn't absolutely sovereign in determining every single event that occurs in the universe, God isn't God at all, and he doesn't exist. If there is one rogue particle in existence, we have great reason for concern.

I think I would agree with you. The Decree is said to be eternal and logical (not chronological due to its eternality) and therefore foreknowledge of man can be said to be innate. I don't see that sort of delineation being made by the Arminians/Semi-Pelagians. Foreknowledge is equated with foresight and therefore cannot be innate. If I am wrong about this, feel free to correct me (anyone).

 

[elman]

So is it safe to say that our Arminian brethren believe that God actually 'learns' information about us that he didn't know? He has to 'figure out' who will cooperate with his salvation plan by looking into the future, thus he discovers some facts about his creation that he didn't know prior to the looking into the future. The only logical conclusion I can come to if I believe this, is that since things happen apart from God's decree, I really can't have assurance that God will deliver on his promises in Scripture since some other entity can make something happen outside of his decree and thus introduce the possibility that his will can be thwarted.

If God isn't absolutely sovereign in determining every single event that occurs in the universe, God isn't God at all, and he doesn't exist. If there is one rogue particle in existence, we have great reason for concern.

No body said God had to learn something. That is your own creation. If God determines every single thing that occurs in the universe then if evil occurs God determined it and God is evil, correct.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

If God foresees our being loving rather than unloving and elects on that basis, how is this confusing God's foreknowledge with foresight. Explain what you mean by that please.

Well first of all you have left grace altogether if God's election is based on something we do. But to answer your question, you are saying God has foreknowledge because he foresees something. That is erroneous, God's foreknowledge cannot be innate if its causality is man.

 

[elman]

I think I would agree with you. The Decree is said to be eternal and logical (not chronological due to its eternality) and therefore foreknowledge of man can be said to be innate. I don't see that sort of delineation being made by the Arminians/Semi-Pelagians. Foreknowledge is equated with foresight and therefore cannot be innate. If I am wrong about this, feel free to correct me (anyone).

You signature reminds me of the parable of the publican and the sinner praying and Jesus said the publican did not go away justified.

 

[guuila]

No body said God had to learn something. That is your own creation.

Then how does God determine who is elect?

 

[elman]

Well first of all you have left grace altogether if God's election is based on something we do. But to answer your question, you are saying God has foreknowledge because he foresees something. That is erroneous, God's foreknowledge cannot be innate if its causality is man.

Jesus said we were either sheep or goats based on something we do. You need to confront Jesus on that. I am not following why you think God's power to foresee what is going to happen in the future is not innate.

 

[guuila]

You signature reminds me of the parable of the publican and the sinner praying and Jesus said the publican did not go away justified.

I'm glad you removed your signature. It was horribly unbiblical.

 

[guuila]

Jesus said we were either sheep or goats based on something we do. You need to confront Jesus on that. I am not following why you think God's power to foresee what is going to happen in the future is not innate.

I honestly think you aren't following 90% of what is being said. You haven't demonstrated any ability thus far to make the necessary distinctions required to move past an elementary understanding of this topic, which is why you constantly confuse election, regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc.

 

[Skala]

No body said God had to learn something. That is your own creation. If God determines every single thing that occurs in the universe then if evil occurs God determined it and God is evil, correct.

Elman, you aren't even an Arminian, so why are you commenting?

 

[guuila]

Elman, you aren't even an Arminian, so why are you commenting?

Right? If anyone believes God 'learns' things, it's Elman since he's an open theist. That's one of the core doctrines of Elmanism.

*let the Ezekiel 18 and Matthew 25 ramblings begin*

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Jesus said we were either sheep or goats based on something we do. You need to confront Jesus on that.

No doubt those who are in Christ are lovers of Christ and perform good works unto Christ. Certainly you don't find this causal in our salvation, do you?

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I am not following why you think God's power to foresee what is going to happen in the future is not innate.

Maybe this will help.

"Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them, that is, He either is willing that they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them."

 

[elman]

Then how does God determine who is elect?

God determines it, according to Jesus, based on what we do--wickedness or righteousness. God does not determine to save the wicked nor does He determine to punish the righteous.

 

[elman]

No doubt those who are in Christ are lovers of Christ and perform good works unto Christ. Certainly you don't find this causal in our salvation, do you?

Jesus certainly did and I agree with Jesus. Luke 13:3 unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish.




I don't agree with Jonathon Edwards if I understand him to say that if evil exists God caused it to exist.

 

[elman]

Right? If anyone believes God 'learns' things, it's Elman since he's an open theist. That's one of the core doctrines of Elmanism.

*let the Ezekiel 18 and Matthew 25 ramblings begin*

Labels incorrectly understood and applied, again.

 

[guuila]

God determines it, according to Jesus, based on what we do--wickedness or righteousness. God does not determine to save the wicked nor does He determine to punish the righteous.

Ok, so when God determines who the elect are, he figures this out by seeing what we will do. Thus he learns information about us (what we will do). Feel free to deny this - you're just being inconsistent. But hey, why should we expect anything different?

 

[elman]

I'm glad you removed your signature. It was horribly unbiblical.

Only if you pick and choose and reject parts of the Bible.