What's the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[elman]

I'm glad you found a part of the Bible that you think is correct.

And you have found a part of the bible you think is not correct.

 

[AlphaTeam]

The same is true of your soterioloigical view. In you rview, God could save everyone, yet does not. I'm not sure why you think it's unique to Calvinism.

My only point was, that this verse, as I understand it now, says that the atonement is unlimited. it was for all. That is my main point. Unless you have another explanation to that verse, or to the phrase "the whole world", I will still doubt Calvinism.

I think you need to study the Bible's doctrine of sin and what the implications of being unregenerate are.

It says we are unable to please God or obey God (Rom 8:7-8). it says we find the gospel foolishness (1 corinthians). It says we are children of wrath by natrue (Eph 2) We cannot perceive the kingdom, let alone enter it, while unregenerate (john 3).

Just to scratch the surface...

Yet you still insist that man can do all of these things while unregenerate.

Adam's wasn't a sinner? wasn't he dead, yet he heard the voice of God, and reacted.

The only "good" thing I believe a sinner can do is to freely choose to accept what God has made for Him. And of course I believe that God should draw him first to Himself, but then I believe, He leaves the choice to the man.
A sinner cannot please God with anything else in his life.

 

[Skala]

And you have found a part of the bible you think is not correct.

False.

The entire Bible is collect.

 

[elman]

My only point was, that this verse, as I understand it now, says that the atonement is unlimited. it was for all. That is my main point. Unless you have another explanation to that verse, or to the phrase "the whole world", I will still doubt Calvinism.



Adam's wasn't a sinner? wasn't he dead, yet he heard the voice of God, and reacted.

The only "good" thing I believe a sinner can do is to freely choose to accept what God has made for Him. And of course I believe that God should draw him first to Himself, but then I believe, He leaves the choice to the man.
A sinner cannot please God with anything else in his life.

I think both the sheep and the goats were sinners, in the sense that they all had fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus however saw a difference in how they treated other people and divided them on that basis. I believe sinners can be loving people as the sheep or as the Good Samaritan was and if they are, they have hope of receiving eternal life, not because they have earned eternal life by their complete sinlessness, but because God loves them and is pleased with their loving actions and wants them with Him as companions.

 

[AlphaTeam]

It seems to me that since the verse says he is the actual propitiation or atonement, then when John says "not only us, but the whole world", he cannot be referring to every individual, but rather is just using a sweeping generalization to refer to all nations of the world. In fact if you look at what John had already wrote about Christ's death in John 11:51-52, we learn that Christ's death was not for the nation only (not us only), but also to gather into one the children of God that are scattered across the world (but the whole world). There is parallel between John 11:51-52 and 1 John 2:2.

It is a mistake to automatically assume that the dividing line between "us..and the whole world" is believers and unbelievers. What is more likely is since we have John 11:51-52 to guide us, and we have the fact that John is a Jew, writing to Jews (as his direct audience), that the dividing line between "us" and "the whole world" is Jews and Gentiles.

I will study that and get back to you.

 

[elman]

False.

The entire Bible is collect.

But parts of it you reject as true.

 

[Skala]

My only point was, that this verse, as I understand it now, says that the atonement is unlimited. it was for all. That is my main point. Unless you have another explanation to that verse, or to the phrase "the whole world", I will still doubt Calvinism.

No, it doesn't say that. You are assuming (without proving) that the phrase "us, and the whole world" is a reference to every single individual in human race.

Don't you have to prove that first and not just assume it?

Even if you did prove it, you would create a problem for you rown theology, because as was pointed out, the verse does not say that Christ was the potential propitiation (a turning away of God's wrath), but the actual one.

If God's wrath was turned away from every single individual in human history, then every single individual in human history will be in heaven. Don't you realize that?

The only way you can escape universalism in this verse is to conclude that "propitiation" here means "potential propitiation" or "possible propitiation", which again, you'd have to prove, not just assume.

I don't see you proving either of these assumptions. Yet you believe them anyways. Why?

 

[Skala]

But parts of it you reject as true.

False, the entire Bible, and every part of it, is true.

 

[AlphaTeam]

No, it doesn't say that. You are assuming (without proving) that the phrase "us, and the whole world" is a reference to every single individual in human race.

Don't you have to prove that first and not just assume it?

Currently I think this is the meaning of all "the whole world". It seems to me now it is more plausible than to say the believers from other nations all over the world.
As I stated earlier, I will study your explanation, and let you know my findings

Even if you did prove it, you would create a problem for you rown theology, because as was pointed out, the verse does not say that Christ was the potential propitiation (a turning away of God's wrath), but the actual one.

I am still studying. I do not have a "theology". I am not an Arminian, yet. For example I believe that one can NOT loose His salvation.

If God's wrath was turned away from every single individual in human history, then every single individual in human history will be in heaven. Don't you realize that?

The only way you can escape universalism in this verse is to conclude that "propitiation" here means "potential propitiation" or "possible propitiation", which again, you'd have to prove, not just assume.

I am against universalism. I believe that there are surely people in hell.

I don't see you proving either of these assumptions. Yet you believe them anyways. Why?

I am not here to prove anything. Again, I am just studying, reviewing and trying examine every thought and teaching.

 

[Skala]

Currently I think this is the meaning of all "the whole world". It seems to me now it is more plausible than to say the believers from other nations all over the world.
As I stated earlier, I will study your explanation, and let you know my findings

I am still studying. I do not have a "theology". I am not an Arminian, yet. For example I believe that one can NOT loose His salvation.

I am against universalism. I believe that there are surely people in hell.

I am not here to prove anything. Again, I am just studying, reviewing and trying examine every thought and teaching.

I appreciate your honesty and that you have demonstrated a willingness to study with an open mind brother.

Enjoy your studies

(PS. some Arminians believe you can lose your salvation, others do not. Both doctrines are acceptable in Arminianism..though of course...only one is consistent with it. (the former)

If salvation is ultimately up to man and not God's effective work to save sinners, then logically, it should be possible for someone to lose their salvation, in Arminianism.

Perseverance of the Saints - the idea that someone cannot lose their salvation - is a tenet of Calvinism, not Arminianism.

In Calvinism, if God elected unconditionally, and Christ effectually atoned to save the sinner, and God effectivelyl called that sinner to salvation and monergistically regenerated said sinner, all to the praise of the glory of his grace, then it makes perfect sense to say that said sinner cannot lose his salvation, as it goes against everything God has been doing thus far.

As you can see, since Arminianism denies everything I said in the above paragraph, there is no consistent reason for them to believe that a sinner cannot lose his salvation. Such a notion is to "borrow" the idea from Calvinism, since their own theology cannot consistently result in or produce such an idea)

 

[guuila]

The only way Arminians can consistently believe in eternal security is if they deny the doctrine of sanctification, which states that believers will be conformed into Christ's image and grow in holiness throughout their life.

Some OSAS Arminians have invented a theory called the "unbelieving believer" which says that a person can be a true Christian, then become an atheist later in life and they'll still be saved since they believed one time in their life. They'll use John 3:16 to back this up, not knowing that the word "believes" in John 3:16 is a present, active verb meaning that the believing needs to be ongoing. This idea of being an unbelieving believer is heresy if you ask me.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


This thread is being moved to Soteriology and will then be subject to the Rules of Soteriology.

 

[AlphaTeam]

I appreciate your honesty and that you have demonstrated a willingness to study with an open mind brother.

Enjoy your studies

Thank you. I think there is no reason to lie here. My thoughts won't make God what He is. We need to set our thoughts on Him.
Many of the heros of faith were and still are Calvinists, I think it would be important to fully understand their views.
I will appreciate your prayers.

(PS. some Arminians believe you can lose your salvation, others do not. Both doctrines are acceptable in Arminianism..though of course...only one is consistent with it. (the former)

If salvation is ultimately up to man and not God's effective work to save sinners, then logically, it should be possible for someone to lose their salvation, in Arminianism.

Perseverance of the Saints - the idea that someone cannot lose their salvation - is a tenet of Calvinism, not Arminianism.

In Calvinism, if God elected unconditionally, and Christ effectually atoned to save the sinner, and God effectivelyl called that sinner to salvation and monergistically regenerated said sinner, all to the praise of the glory of his grace, then it makes perfect sense to say that said sinner cannot lose his salvation, as it goes against everything God has been doing thus far.

As you can see, since Arminianism denies everything I said in the above paragraph, there is no consistent reason for them to believe that a sinner cannot lose his salvation. Such a notion is to "borrow" the idea from Calvinism, since their own theology cannot consistently result in or produce such an idea)

I think one can't looses His salvation because, simply, this is how I understood the bible:
1) I am my father's son (physical father), My name is in his ID, and his is in mine. Even if I am dead, or he is, I will still be his son, and nobody can change that. Its in my DNA! The same with salvation, I believe, a saved man must be born again. There is nothing, nothing in this world that can unborn you. the saved man will have His father's spiritual "DNA".
2) Many verses like in John 10: 25
did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

I think salvation is a miracle, that however you come to have it, it cannot be undone. Man changes to be a new creation. a creature that belongs to God now.

I know many of the other verses that claim otherwise, I am just convinced with this view, at least for now.

 

[Epoisses]

No, it doesn't say that. You are assuming (without proving) that the phrase "us, and the whole world" is a reference to every single individual in human race.

Don't you have to prove that first and not just assume it?

Even if you did prove it, you would create a problem for you rown theology, because as was pointed out, the verse does not say that Christ was the potential propitiation (a turning away of God's wrath), but the actual one.

If God's wrath was turned away from every single individual in human history, then every single individual in human history will be in heaven. Don't you realize that?

The only way you can escape universalism in this verse is to conclude that "propitiation" here means "potential propitiation" or "possible propitiation", which again, you'd have to prove, not just assume.

I don't see you proving either of these assumptions. Yet you believe them anyways. Why?

Wrong! By that definition than the Apostle Paul would be a universalist.

What do you do with 1Cor. 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Paul used this analogy many times and it most definitely refers to the whole world.

Christ's sacrifice saved the whole world so it was a universal sacrifice. Does that mean that all will accept and be in heaven? No, because it does require faith and some refuse to believe.

But the lost did have a perfect and complete salvation. Jesus was only waiting for the slightest hint of faith to make it a reality in their lives.

Human beings are not robots. God requires us to exercise faith. Every miracle that Jesus performed required faith so it most definitely is a requirement.

 

[Keachian]

Wrong! By that definition than the Apostle Paul would be a universalist.

What do you do with 1Cor. 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Paul used this analogy many times and it most definitely refers to the whole world.

He uses it twice from my recollection and both time he is making a sharp distinction between the elect finding their new headship in Christ and the non-elect who are in Adam. He uses it binarily, you are either in Adam and destined for eternal destruction or you are in Christ and destined for eternal life.

Christ's sacrifice saved the whole world so it was a universal sacrifice. Does that mean that all will accept and be in heaven? No, because it does require faith and some refuse to believe.

Can I see your verses to back this up?

But the lost did have a perfect and complete salvation. Jesus was only waiting for the slightest hint of faith to make it a reality in their lives.

Then it is neither perfect nor complete, it still needs something.

Human beings are not robots. God requires us to exercise faith. Every miracle that Jesus performed required faith so it most definitely is a requirement.

1 Corinthians 12 lists faith among the gifts God gives his people, and it is also included among the fruits of the spirit in Eph 6 iirc, yes we exercise our faith but our faith only comes from God it does not come from within us.

 

[Arcoe]

Christ's sacrifice saved the whole world so it was a universal sacrifice. Does that mean that all will accept and be in heaven? No, because it does require faith and some refuse to believe.

Can I see your verses to back this up?

Luke 19:10 -
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Who in this universe wasn't/isn't lost?

 

[Keachian]

Luke 19:10 -
For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Who in this universe wasn't/isn't lost?

Jesus is responding to the selfrighteousness of some, that because of their piety looked at Zaccheus as if he was lost, thought of themselves as safe. Context is everything my friend.

 

[Epoisses]

If we follow your logic then, How did Adam sin in the first place.

I shouldn't have been possible.

Sounds like free-will to me.

 

[Skala]

If we follow your logic then, How did Adam sin in the first place.

I shouldn't have been possible.

Sounds like free-will to me.

Some would say that Adam's unfallen nature had the ability to either sin, or not to sin.

He sinned because sin was a possibility.

However, since Adam fell, all men are born fallen and no longer have the same ability Adam had. Instead, they can only sin, 100% of the time.

It is a mistake to assume all of Adams posterity is at the same starting point Adam himself was.

 

[Skala]

What do you do with 1Cor. 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Yes, in Adam, all die. Who is in Adam? Everyone

In Christ, all are made alive. Who is in Christ? Only believers.

It's the "in.." part that is important in this verse. In Adam, this happens to you. In Christ, this happens to you.

Not everyone is in Christ. Many remain in Adam all the way to hell.