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What's the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism?

Skala

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As you can see, both views say that God elects people before the foundation of the world.

Arminians say that the reason for God's choice of you was because he foresaw obedience in you.

Calvinists say that the reason for God's choice of you was grace alone, as there is no such thing, apart from saving grace, as obedience in you.

Any questions? Can we move on now? Can we quit pretending that only Calvinists believe that God elects people before the foundation of the world? Because that would be fantastic.
 

AlphaTeam

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Any questions? Can we move on now? Can we quit pretending that only Calvinists believe that God elects people before the foundation of the world? Because that would be fantastic.
I do not think we can move on that. Many Calvinist that I heard from still say that God elects people before the foundation of the world. And that He elects them based on His own will alone.

I also think that from the definition "Grace alone" (without giving the man an option to choose to accept this amazing grace or reject it), follows logically that God elects people before the foundation. Since He already know to whom He wants to show His grace, and since Calvinists believe it is irresistible, follows logically, that to whom He will show His irresistible grace, he will be saved. And thus He already chose those who He wanted to be saved, in other words elected them before the foundation of the word.

I am still studying this subject. I am not here to debate it. Just sharing my humble thoughts with you. This is how I think salvation happen:

There was a nice image about Calvinism here in the forum, about a skeleton hand been lifted up by the Holy Spirit guiding it to Jesus. I agree with it totally. To God is all the glory, He did everything to save us. He is to be credited for His salvation, love and grace. He is sovereign. Without His grace we all will be lost, and cannot be found!
However, what I currently believe in and is not reflected in that image is:
1) Man is free to reject the Holy Spirit. (God's grace is not irresistible)
2) The atonement is not limited for a closed group of people. Every human can enjoy this precious atonement.
 
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Skala

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I do not think we can move on that. Many Calvinist that I heard from still say that God elects people before the foundation of the world. And that He elects them based on His own will alone.

I also think that from the definition "Grace alone" (without giving the man an option to choose to accept this amazing grace or reject it), follows logically that God elects people before the foundation. Since He already know to whom He wants to show His grace, and since Calvinists believe it is irresistible, follows logically, that to whom He will show His irresistible grace, he will be saved. And thus He already chose those who He wanted to be saved, in other words elected them before the foundation of the word.

I am still studying this subject. I am not here to debate it. Just sharing my humble thoughts with you. This is how I think salvation happen:

There was a nice image about Calvinism here in the forum, about a skeleton hand been lifted up by the Holy Spirit guiding it to Jesus. I agree with it totally. To God is all the glory, He did everything to save us. He is to be credited for His salvation, love and grace. He is sovereign. Without His grace we all will be lost, and cannot be found!
However, what I currently believe in and is not reflected in that image is:
1) Man is free to reject the Holy Spirit. (God's grace is not irresistible)
2) The atonement is not limited for a closed group of people. Every human can enjoy this precious atonement.

I think you misunderstand what Irresistible Grace means, and that is probably because of the unfortunate label. A better, more accurate label for the doctrine is "effectual calling".

Irresistible Grace does not aim to teach that God's grace cannot be resisted. In fact, the T in TULIP (Total Depravity) teaches that very thing: that humans are always resisting God's grace because they are unregenerate and by nature children of wrath.

What Irresistible Grace means is that everyone would resist God's grace all the way to hell, unless God steps in to change our hearts. And God never fails to do this because regeneration is the realm of the Spirit of God alone, per John chapter 3.

The elect stop resisting God's grace when God quickens us while we were spiritually dead. The non-elect effectually resist God's grace all their lives.

As for Christ's atonement, I think you are again misunderstand what is meant by "Limited". It does not mean that people cannot avail themselves of the atonement if they want to. So it is not limited in a practical aspect.

What it means is that Christ successfully saved and made perfect atonement for every single person he died for. And since this is not everyone (that would be universalism), it must be less than everyone, or Limited.

The distinction is drawn from realizing that the Bible never speaks of Christ's death as merely potentially or possibly securing salvation for us, but actually, and effectually doing so.

No where does the Bible talk about Christ's atoning work for us as merely making salvation "possible", but actually saving us.
 
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AlphaTeam

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I think you misunderstand what Irresistible Grace means, and that is probably because of the unfortunate label. A better, more accurate label for the doctrine is "effectual calling".

Irresistible Grace does not aim to teach that God's grace cannot be resisted. In fact, the T in TULIP (Total Depravity) teaches that very thing: that humans are always resisting God's grace because they are unregenerate and by nature children of wrath.

What Irresistible Grace means is that everyone would resist God's grace all the way to hell, unless God steps in to change our hearts. And God never fails to do this because regeneration is the realm of the Spirit of God alone, per John chapter 3.

The elect stop resisting God's grace when God quickens us while we were spiritually dead. The non-elect effectually resist God's grace all their lives.

As for Christ's atonement, I think you are again misunderstand what is meant by "Limited". It does not mean that people cannot avail themselves of the atonement if they want to. So it is not limited in a practical aspect.

What it means is that Christ successfully saved and made perfect atonement for every single person he died for. And since this is not everyone (that would be universalism), it must be less than everyone, or Limited.

The distinction is drawn from realizing that the Bible never speaks of Christ's death as merely potentially or possibly securing salvation for us, but actually, and effectually doing so.

No where does the Bible talk about Christ's atoning work for us as merely making salvation "possible", but actually saving us.
I think you are a "soft" Calvinist. I like that. Or maybe trying to soften it..

Many other Calvinists are not like that. I have heard many say and affirm that if God wants to save you, you can not resist Him. It is His choice, He is soveregin, He will make it happen inspite of you! I disagree with that. I think every man can say: no.

Thanks for explaining the limited atonement part. I understand what was meant by it better now.
 
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Skala

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I think you are a "soft" Calvinist. I like that. Or maybe trying to soften it..

Many other Calvinists are not like that. I have heard many say and affirm that if God wants to save you, you can not resist Him. It is His choice, He is soveregin, He will make it happen inspite of you! I disagree with that. I think every man can say: no.

Thanks for explaining the limited atonement part. I understand what was meant by it better now.

Nope. I'm a regular Calvinist. Every other Calvinist on these forums would agree with what I have said here.
 
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AlphaTeam

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What Irresistible Grace means is that everyone would resist God's grace all the way to hell, unless God steps in to change our hearts. And God never fails to do this because regeneration is the realm of the Spirit of God alone, per John chapter 3.
Let me rephrase that part then..

When God comes and steps in to change the heart of someone, He starts activating His regeneration skills.
1) Can a man say to Him: No?
2) By saying "God never fails", again, are you suggesting that He will always succeed in saving the man, in spite of what the man freely want?
 
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Skala

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Let me rephrase that part then..

When God comes and steps in to change the heart of someone, He starts activating His regeneration skills.
1) Can a man say to Him: No?

The Bible speaks of regeneration with three analogies:

1) birth
2) resurrection
3) creation

Do you notice a similarity in those three things? They are all monergistic activities. In other words, you cannot assist in your own birth (because they aren't born yet), nor can a dead man assist in his own resurrection (because he's dead), nor can a person assist in their own creation. (because he doesn't exist)

If a person is the recipient of any of these things, his volition is not involved at all. Which means neither cooperation nor uncooperation are factored in. His volition is not involved, either for or against. So there is no such thing as "against his will" or "saying no" or "Freely wanting"

2) By saying "God never fails", again, are you suggesting that He will always succeed in saving the man, in spite of what the man freely want?

He will always succeed in regeneration, and the natural response of the regenerate person is to freely and willingly desire, and thus choose, Christ.

Does that make sense?
 
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elman

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arm-vs-calv.jpg


As you can see, both views say that God elects people before the foundation of the world.

Arminians say that the reason for God's choice of you was because he foresaw obedience in you.

Calvinists say that the reason for God's choice of you was grace alone, as there is no such thing, apart from saving grace, as obedience in you.

Any questions? Can we move on now? Can we quit pretending that only Calvinists believe that God elects people before the foundation of the world? Because that would be fantastic.

I do not believe God created some people destined for eternal punishment with no ability to change their destiny and some of these people God left to their destiny. That would not be a Creator deserving of love and respect from us. I have little of no interest in Arminians vs Calvinist. I do have an interest in God being loving and kind and just and merciful and truthful. I am very much opposed to a God who tortures people forever because he loves himself.
 
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wordsoflife

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I do not believe God created some people destined for eternal punishment with no ability to change their destiny and some of these people God left to their destiny. That would not be a Creator deserving of love and respect from us. I have little of no interest in Arminians vs Calvinist. I do have an interest in God being loving and kind and just and merciful and truthful. I am very much opposed to a God who tortures people forever because he loves himself.

Elman actually halfway made sense for once.
 
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Skala

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To answer the question, calvinism is a man made doctrine, adding words to Jesus Christ mouth, 1 John 2:2, and John 3:16.

I defeated you multiple times on calvinism, and you keep opening threads speaking this un-Biblical doctrine, I suspect trolling.

SavedbyChrist adds words to 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16 to parade his unbiblical manmade doctrine of Arminianism. (I mean, it's named after A MAN, after all! Gasp!!!)

He changes "propitiation" to "potential propitiation", and "so" to "intensely", and "whoever believes" to "every single person in human history" (even though whoever believes is by definition a sub-group of the human race)

If that's not twisting scripture, I don't know what is.
 
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Epoisses

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The Bible speaks of regeneration with three analogies:

1) birth
2) resurrection
3) creation

Do you notice a similarity in those three things? They are all monergistic activities. In other words, you cannot assist in your own birth (because they aren't born yet), nor can a dead man assist in his own resurrection (because he's dead), nor can a person assist in their own creation. (because he doesn't exist)

If a person is the recipient of any of these things, his volition is not involved at all. Which means neither cooperation nor uncooperation are factored in. His volition is not involved, either for or against. So there is no such thing as "against his will" or "saying no" or "Freely wanting"

He will always succeed in regeneration, and the natural response of the regenerate person is to freely and willingly desire, and thus choose, Christ.

Does that make sense?

No! More extremeism. This is like the antitype of legalism. Legalists want to make it all about them and Calvinists make it all about God to the point that man is a robot with no free-will.

Here's an example. We know that 2/3rds of the angel's sided with God and 1/3rd sided with Satan in the rebellion in heaven. So what's the difference? All the angel's were equal in the fact that they were all holy, sinless and created by God.

So why didn't they all side with God? Ummmmm....Free-will!!!!!

They have it and so do we. Robots are best left for science-fiction.
 
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