What's the current state of Intelligent Design?

pitabread

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They have a lot of stories of how things may have evolved

Not just stories. In some cases scientists can actually recreate the evolutionary pathways in the lab (e.g. ancestral genome reconstruction).

they don't actually know how a brain with the whole body evolved, this i can say for sure. DNA is similar to all animals, and there is design choices similar in nature, and etc, i get it, but i don't buy an amoeba can evolve into a human with random changes being accepted by natural selection, less knowing God, and that we have a soul inside.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't tell us anything about how things were designed or how we can detect design in nature.

We need something more than just incredulity.
 
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Occams Barber

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For me a creationist is someone that believes God had in mind what persons will become and made it happen, is a 'creation' of his... i don't believe he would put a soul in a body he didn't created in one way or another, also this means we were designed our souls are designed and souls have specific things that work with the body, so thinking we were a design from God being a christian and having met God and his Holy spirit, even the 'craziests' parts of the bible are not so incredible anymore, do i have my doubts in what to think, sure, i prefer to think the world is old, but i am not a product of lucky changes.

You seem to be exhibiting the typical Creationist mix of woeful ignorance of evolution combined with an outdated view of ID.

"I am a not a product of lucky changes" is a fairly typical Creationist trope indicating a poor understanding of even the most basic principles of evolution i.e., random variation (DNA changes) combined with natural selection (successfully producing offspring) lead to evolutionary change.

The evolution of the eye has been well understood for over a century. Heck - even Darwin had this one broadly worked out in 1859 when he published 'The Origin of Species". You can find explanations of eye evolution in most basic evolution primers. Here's Wikipedia's version Evolution of the eye - Wikipedia

Intelligent Design was sent to the scientific dustbin in 2005 when a major court decision (Kitzmiller vs Dover) established that it was not a science. The judge also made it clear that ID was little more than Creationism dressed up in a lab coat to create a false 'sciencey' impression.

Irreducible complexity also took a beating in the same court case:
"Professor (Michael) Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large." (from Judge Jones' summation)​

The now infamous irreducibility of the bacterial flagellum argument has been shown to be scientifically incorrect along with the concept of irreducible complexity itself. What Behe failed to consider was that components with a specific function could combine, or be modified, to form a new part with a new (or enhanced) function.

ID/Creationists have yet to define 'design' in a way applicable to the evolution argument after decades of trying.

May I suggest that you familiarise yourself with the history of ID and its dishonest attempts to sneak Creationism into US schools through the back door.

You might also spend a little time in getting to understand evolution before embarking on this type of critique from ignorance.

OB
 
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Hans Blaster

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(* On a side note, I find it interesting that Darwin is referenced in the titles of their books. I've always found it odd that those in the creationism/ID camps continue to fixate on Darwin.)

I think this is because the ID project was always more about tearing down "Darwinism" and Darwin so that other things (though not science) could more easily move in.
 
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Occams Barber

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I think this is because the ID project was always more about tearing down "Darwinism" and Darwin so that other things (though not science) could more easily move in.


The objectives of ID were fairly clearly articulated in the Wedge Document drafted by the Discovery Institute back in 1998. This is a brief summary taken from the Wikipedia article;

The Wedge Document outlines a public relations campaign meant to sway the opinion of the public, popular media, charitable funding agencies, and public policy makers.

The document sets forth the short-term and long-term goals with milestones for the intelligent design movement, with its governing goals stated in the opening paragraph:

  • "To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies"
  • "To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God"

OB
 
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loveofourlord

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Like i said, those parts are not "unique", they are not interacting towards working towards some functionality, like a computer, or an *human eye* or a car.

This is not a debunked argument, this works, the eye has unique parts designed to work towards providing vision, the computer the same with a different functionality, and the car the same, you can make excuses, but STOP, think about it well, and you can detect design in cars computer planes , and biological organisms too.

the eye is the dumbest one to use, we have very good examples of how the eye evolved right now in the animal kingdom, kinda a silly one to bring up.
 
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BobRyan

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Other than Stephen Meyer's Dissent From Darwinism and Behe's Darwin Devolves* being published in the past few years, I haven't heard much from the ID camp these days.

What exactly are they up to these days? Any ID breakthroughs to talk about? Any new or exciting things coming out of the ID camp?

Have they figured out how to detect design in biological organisms yet?

(* On a side note, I find it interesting that Darwin is referenced in the titles of their books. I've always found it odd that those in the creationism/ID camps continue to fixate on Darwin.)

I for one am happy to see agnostics tossing Darwin under the bus.
 
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Speedwell

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I for one am happy to see agnostics tossing Darwin under the bus.
Darwin? He (and others) had the original insight on which the theory is based and he is still respected for it, but science passed him by a long time ago. Calling the theory of evolution "Darwinism" is an affection, rather like calling modern physics "Newtonism."
 
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Occams Barber

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I for one am happy to see agnostics tossing Darwin under the bus.


Darwin published Origin of Species 160 years ago Bob. The science has moved on a bit since then.

You've got to learn to let go of the 'Darwin' fetish. :( (Which agnostics?)

OB
 
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Strathos

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Reminds me of a thread I once made where I pointed out that so many creationists focus on attacking Darwin, somehow thinking that will invalidate the ToE, and compared it to attacking Christopher Columbus and thinking that will somehow invalidate the existence of the Americas.
 
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cutterfl

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Since that is not how biological components are assembled, hacking them to pieces like that doesn't demonstrate anything except that the components are functionally interrelated. Biological structures evolve their components gradually in situ and the functionality evolves along with them. In order to "disassemble" a biological structure you have to back it down the presumed evolutionary pathway, step by step.

But Pitabread asked, what is new with ID? Yours is an old and long-debunked argument.
absolutely not. I would agree that parts are more than functionally interrelated, but then you go on to say that evolved separately. You can't do that, as the structure falls apart on every level. How could any development in eye be functional without corresponding changes in brain to make it useful? Yet we see almost every form of eye in the earliest fossil records, many of which are just as complex and require brain/structure interaction.

We, as humans, are holistically designed. A vast number of our functions are commanded by interdependent organs releasing hormones that produce rapid responses....reactions to glucose, CO2 levels in blood for example by liver, pancreas, lungs, brain, kidneys....all to form homeostasis. How did these complex relationships evolve? Darwin thought some of these were vestigial organs, totally debunked idea now, although you evolutionists still strive to promote that myth. Who needs a thryoid? There is no organ left without function and left with just minor tissues. A fold or muscles in ear...or the bump in eye, which is where tear ducts flow out of and incredibly useful to get things out of eye.

Then we could on to talk about ecology that dependent systems need a bare minimum of service providers to survive, so by evolution, they had to evolve at once with minimum number of providers...aka things like pollinators and flowers, fungus and plant roots in soil, gut bioemes and vertebrates. One can't survive without the other, but there are multiple overlapping providers in any ecosystem, take a minimum away and can't survive. So a large number must have been present in any ecosystem instantly or in very very short period of maybe days. Yeah every try to grow plants? Most die, because necessary providers are not present in soil or environment.
 
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Speedwell

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absolutely not. I would agree that parts are more than functionally interrelated, but then you go on to say that evolved separately. You can't do that, as the structure falls apart on every level. How could any development in eye be functional without corresponding changes in brain to make it useful? Yet we see almost every form of eye in the earliest fossil records, many of which are just as complex and require brain/structure interaction.

We, as humans, are holistically designed. A vast number of our functions are commanded by interdependent organs releasing hormones that produce rapid responses....reactions to glucose, CO2 levels in blood for example by liver, pancreas, lungs, brain, kidneys....all to form homeostasis. How did these complex relationships evolve? Darwin thought some of these were vestigial organs, totally debunked idea now, although you evolutionists still strive to promote that myth. Who needs a thryoid? There is no organ left without function and left with just minor tissues. A fold or muscles in ear...or the bump in eye, which is where tear ducts flow out of and incredibly useful to get things out of eye.

Then we could on to talk about ecology that dependent systems need a bare minimum of service providers to survive, so by evolution, they had to evolve at once with minimum number of providers...aka things like pollinators and flowers, fungus and plant roots in soil, gut bioemes and vertebrates. One can't survive without the other, but there are multiple overlapping providers in any ecosystem, take a minimum away and can't survive. So a large number must have been present in any ecosystem instantly or in very very short period of maybe days. Yeah every try to grow plants? Most die, because necessary providers are not present in soil or environment.
In other words, you don't understand how related traits co-evolve (although it is not a mystery to evolutionary biologists) and you don't want to find out because you would rather deny it.
 
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cutterfl

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In other words, you don't understand how related traits co-evolve (although it is not a mystery to evolutionary biologists) and you don't want to find out because you would rather deny it.

sure, post me a link on how step by step evolution somehow also formed codependent traits in multiple organs. Would love to hear that.
 
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Speedwell

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sure, post me a link on how step by step evolution somehow also formed codependent traits in multiple organs. Would love to hear that.
The short answer is that the selective environment which acts on a trait is not just the environment external to the creature but includes related evolving traits within the creature.
 
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cutterfl

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The short answer is that the selective environment which acts on a trait is not just the environment external to the creature but includes related evolving traits within the creature.

LMAO...you cant post any evidence of multiorgan evolution by genetics, and just say, environment did it, srrsly?> DO YOU EVEN BELIEVE THAT?
 
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cutterfl

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The short answer is that the selective environment which acts on a trait is not just the environment external to the creature but includes related evolving traits within the creature.
your razor would say, NOPE someone created that stuff no?
 
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BobRyan

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Reminds me of a thread I once made where I pointed out that so many creationists focus on attacking Darwin, somehow thinking that will invalidate the ToE, and compared it to attacking Christopher Columbus and thinking that will somehow invalidate the existence of the Americas.


appealing to blind faith evolution as assumed fact -- regardless of having no science demonstrating the mechanism
 
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Shemjaza

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your razor would say, NOPE someone created that stuff no?
No, when you have to add new types of existence, new types of interaction, new types of evidence... then no, it is not a simpler solution.

Easier to say, is not necessarily a simpler or more likely solution.

For example: "The ancient Egyptians used complicated pulleys, clever geometry and a whole lot of trained and untrained labour to build the pyramids" is complicated to explain.

However "I personally will travel back and build the pyramids with magic." Is easy... but raises far more questions then it answers.
 
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Shemjaza

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appealing to blind faith evolution as assumed fact -- regardless of having no science demonstrating the mechanism
Mutation creates variation... differential survival rates creates selection.

Trivial to explain.
 
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