What's really missing? The evidence or ... something else?

[2PhiloVoid]

We all see Christian faith failing around us in one way or another in our present world, with many people claiming that it's the lack of evidence causing this. But is it, is it fully? Could it be also that it's not so much the evidence for the faith that is missing but something more personal, the failure to obtain or attain something we each hope to have acquired in this spiritually misbegotten world in which we live?

Flyleaf - "Missing" (2009)

Is there anything holding you back from faith other than just feeling that you lack a clarity of vision for evidences which may or may not be within our grasp?

Is our holding back from Christ perhaps really coming from our expectations and a desire for the the things of the world: our desire for the perfect lover, or for the greatest job or occupation, and/or for a position of empowerment? To what extent are we, like Lacey Sturm in the Flyleaf video above, recognizing that we may be being spiritually held back by the world around us as it attempts to play a part in how we define our conceptual views of religion ... ?

***********

Missing (Lyrics)
Flyleaf

I saw your queen
Swam out below her star on sea beneath
Though I lifted up my hands to her
She never lifted me

Oh something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone
Found something sweet
On the island with the daughters of eve
But through thick and thin they've gone away
And only left their grief

Oh, something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone

Something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone

Something's missing in me
Something's missing in me

Down here love wasn't meant to be
It wasn't meant to be for me

All is vanity underneath the sun (It wasn't meant to be)
All is vanity

Something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone

Something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone

Something's missing in me
Something's missing in me
Something's missing in me
Something's missing in me

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Definitely the cares of this world, and the rush to satisfy desires before the end comes. It's hard to let go of something you never had.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Definitely the cares of this world, and the rush to satisfy desires before the end comes. It's hard to let go of something you never had.

True enough, for all of us I think! But maybe we're trying to gain or let go of at least some things which we don't really need? What do'ya think?

 

[Halbhh]

We all see Christian faith failing around us in one way or another in our present world, with many people claiming that it's the lack of evidence causing this. But is it, is it fully? Could it be also that it's not so much the evidence for the faith that is missing but something more personal, the failure to obtain or attain something we each hope to have acquired in this spiritually misbegotten world in which we live?

Flyleaf - "Missing" (2009)

Is there anything holding you back from faith other than just feeling that you lack a clarity of vision for evidences which may or may not be within our grasp?

Is our holding back from Christ perhaps really coming from our expectations and a desire for the the things of the world: our desire for the perfect lover, or for the greatest job or occupation, and/or for a position of empowerment? To what extent are we, like Lacey Sturm in the Flyleaf video above, recognizing that we may be being spiritually held back by the world around us ... ?

***********

Missing (Lyrics)
Flyleaf

I saw your queen
Swam out below her star on sea beneath
Though I lifted up my hands to her
She never lifted me

Oh something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone
Found something sweet
On the island with the daughters of eve
But through thick and thin they've gone away
And only left their grief

Oh, something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone

Something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone

Something's missing in me
Something's missing in me

Down here love wasn't meant to be
It wasn't meant to be for me

All is vanity underneath the sun (It wasn't meant to be)
All is vanity

Something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone

Something's missing in me
I felt it deep within me
As lovers left me to bleed alone

Something's missing in me
Something's missing in me
Something's missing in me
Something's missing in me

More than just a few people have had that feeling I think (until they find what they are looking for )

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

The thing is - not all of us need faith or religion. I tried to believe for years because I was raised with Christianity and nearly everyone I knew was Christian. I considered it important because of the importance that others placed on it. But the religion never sat well with me. It was a shoe that didn't fit. And now that I am without it, I'm fine. I haven't replaced it with anything and don't feel like I have a void or anything that needs to be filled.

Christians assume everyone needs faith and feels a lack if they don't have it. But the more secular society becomes - the more people get to choose whether or not they need spirituality in their lives & not everyone does.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The thing is - not all of us need faith or religion. I tried to believe for years because I was raised with Christianity and nearly everyone I knew was Christian. I considered it important because of the importance that others placed on it. But the religion never sat well with me. It was a shoe that didn't fit. And now that I am without it, I'm fine. I haven't replaced it with anything and don't feel like I have a void or anything that needs to be filled.

Christians assume everyone needs faith and feels a lack if they don't have it. But the more secular society becomes - the more people get to choose whether or not they need spirituality in their lives & not everyone does.

I imagine a large number of people don't have a felt need for faith or religion, but that's not really what I'm attempting to get at in this thread (although I do appreciate your stepping forth and expressing yourself on this).

Since your personal framework is a little different on this, may I ask an alternative but related question: Is there anything that you've wanted in life that Christianity didn't provide which particularly galls you? [If the answer is too personal, I won't be bent out of shape if you wish to refrain from answering. I'm not really wanting this thread to become a 'therapy session' anyway, but a place to discuss such things as various kinds of disappointments in life that we might feel we need to have ameliorated ... ]

 

[OldWiseGuy]

True enough, for all of us I think! But maybe we're trying to gain or let go of at least some things which we don't really need? What do'ya think?

I think God desires us to live an abundant life, even if a difficult one. Jesus himself dressed well and likely owned a home. Paul says to be content in the state we're in but he didn't mean to remain there if promotion is possible.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think God desires us to live an abundant life, even if a difficult one. Jesus himself dressed well and likely owned a home. Paul says to be content in the state we're in but he didn't mean to remain there if promotion is possible.

...I'm not sure that I share the "abundant life" expectation, at least not in a sense that some of the 'success and wealth' churches tend to proffer. I'm not sure that Jesus Himself was "well-dressed," although I'm sure He was cleanly dressed most of the time, although He made a comment which was indirectly addressed to Herod that makes me doubt Jesus held any substantial properties. But, who knows.

Regardless, my focus here is on how folks may be feeling about not having various things in life that they may feel they want or need and how that in turn makes them feel about their faith in Christ/God.

 

[bhsmte]

IMO, it is tied to personal psychological needs. If one has a strong enough need, they can convince themselves of just about anything and deny anything that threatens a needed belief.

In some people, psychological needs change, as we have life experiences and learn new information.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

IMO, it is tied to personal psychological needs. If one has a strong enough need, they can convince themselves of just about anything and deny anything that threatens a needed belief.

In some people, psychological needs change, as we have life experiences and learn new information.

In my sociological view, I wouldn't say that it's "tied" to personal psychological needs (partly because I value Jesus over Maslow), but rather that psychological needs (and wants) play a strong influence in how we perceive our engagement with religion of any kind, whether it's in our understanding of Christianity or of any other belief set.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

I imagine a large number of people don't have a felt need for faith or religion, but that's not really what I'm attempting to get at in this thread (although I do appreciate your stepping forth and expressing yourself on this).

Since your personal framework is a little different on this, may I ask an alternative but related question: Is there anything that you've wanted in life that Christianity didn't provide which particularly galls you? [If the answer is too personal, I won't be bent out of shape if you wish to refrain from answering. I'm not really wanting this thread to become a 'therapy session' anyway, but a place to discuss such things as various kinds of disappointments in life that we might feel we need to have ameliorated ... ]

Hmm, not really. Once I accepted that religion just wasn't for me- there wasn't anything left to gall me. I didn't find Christianity lacking, just incongruous with my core self.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hmm, not really. Once I accepted that religion just wasn't for me- there wasn't anything left to gall me. I didn't find Christianity lacking, just incongruous with my core self.

ok. I'll just assume that's an honest answer. So, you've had no experience(s) of 'failed' prayer or lack in acquiring basic wants (or needs)? If not, then that's great to hear!

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

ok. I'll just assume that's an honest answer. So, you've had no experience(s) of 'failed' prayer or lack in acquiring basic wants (or needs)? If not, then that's great to hear!

Lol, I didn't seek stuff in prayer or religion. You'd understand if you knew my background. The only thing I expected or hoped for out of religion was a personal relationship with God and a better understanding of things.

Life sucks. God doesn't fix that, never thought He would. I don't come from a background that holds that worldview. At best, a personal relationship with God might make the sucking of life more bearable, but that's about it. Millions of people exist without basic wants or needs met, that isn't God's forte.

And while I didn't get that personal relationship, I did gain a deeper understanding - largely that I was looking at it wrong. So I don't consider that prayer failed.

I hold a weird perspective.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

...I'm not sure that I share the "abundant life" expectation, at least not in a sense that some of the 'success and wealth' churches tend to proffer. I'm not sure that Jesus Himself was "well-dressed," although I'm sure He was cleanly dressed most of the time, although He made a comment which was indirectly addressed to Herod that makes me doubt Jesus held any substantial properties. But, who knows.

Regardless, my focus here is on how folks may be feeling about not having various things in life that they may feel they want or need and how that in turn makes them feel about their faith in Christ/God.

While wealth has a somewhat common material meaning abundance can be a very personal and subjective thing. In my case the ability to continue working is abundance. Also the ability to hunt and fish, work in my shop, take long walks, pump some iron, having my family close, plus being able to afford a toy or two is abundance. The mental and physical ability to enjoy life into senior years is true abundance for me.

 

[bhsmte]

In my sociological view, I wouldn't say that it's "tied" to personal psychological needs (partly because I value Jesus over Maslow), but rather that psychological needs (and wants) play a strong influence in how we perceive our engagement with religion of any kind, whether it's in our understanding of Christianity or of any other belief set.

Thats cool. We just see it differently.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

IMO, it is tied to personal psychological needs. If one has a strong enough need, they can convince themselves of just about anything and deny anything that threatens a needed belief.

In some people, psychological needs change, as we have life experiences and learn new information.

Once certain needs are met we move on to other more mature needs or desires. I believe there is a common cycle that addresses that maturing process, which quite happily, ends in mentoring others.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm not sure that Jesus Himself was "well-dressed," although I'm sure He was cleanly dressed most of the time, although He made a comment which was indirectly addressed to Herod that makes me doubt Jesus held any substantial properties. But, who knows.

While most portrayals of Jesus have him wearing little more than sackcloth he wore a garment "woven without seams", that the Roman soldiers gambled for. There also is a strong suggestion that he owned a house in Caperneum.

 

[bhsmte]

Once certain needs are met we move on to other more mature needs or desires. I believe there is a common cycle that addresses that maturing process, which quite happily, ends in mentoring others.

Some needs are ongoing, and heavily tied to our psyche. Some are more fleeting.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Lol, I didn't seek stuff in prayer or religion. You'd understand if you knew my background. The only thing I expected or hoped for out of religion was a personal relationship with God and a better understanding of things.

Life sucks. God doesn't fix that, never thought He would. I don't come from a background that holds that worldview. At best, a personal relationship with God might make the sucking of life more bearable, but that's about it. Millions of people exist without basic wants or needs met, that isn't God's forte.

And while I didn't get that personal relationship, I did gain a deeper understanding - largely that I was looking at it wrong. So I don't consider that prayer failed.

I hold a weird perspective.

I'll swerve away from calling your perspective 'weird' since it resembles my own in some ways. I don't know whether or not you're like me in sharing a realist perspective of life, but if you are, I can definitely say that the first two paragraphs in your response are very relatable to me. Your third paragraph is a different matter, but since I don't want to delve into perception and epistemology, I'll swerve away, too, from grilling you about any of that.

For the most part, I'm impressed that when you were engaging the Christian faith in the past, you apparently did so with less expectation of it than many do these days. But are you implying here that not "getting" a personal relationship with God played into how you now see things, or am I misreading what you're saying?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

While wealth has a somewhat common material meaning abundance can be a very personal and subjective thing. In my case the ability to continue working is abundance. Also the ability to hunt and fish, work in my shop, take long walks, pump some iron, having my family close, plus being able to afford a toy or two is abundance. The mental and physical ability to enjoy life into senior years is true abundance for me.

If that's what you mean, then I can very much concur.