• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

BPPLEE

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,034
7,496
61
Montgomery
✟253,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are right she calls God ho theos and Jesus ho logos. Here’s a sample——-
“John 1:1 in Greek does not say what the English translation conveys.....
The Greek language had no special word for the singular (though at that time, nameless) God of the Jews....so it identified him with the definite article (the) "ho"....so look for that little word in the Greek here....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

The entire meaning of that one famous verse is rendered invalid unless the definite article is acknowledged.....and when it is, it changes the whole meaning.

Jehovah is "ho theos" and Jesus is "ho logos" but if you look closely, the definite article is missing from the second mention of "theos", which makes "the Word" someone who was "with" THE God ("ho theos") but who was not "ho theos", but simply "theos" (correctly rendered "a god" or "divine one").

"Theos" in Greek does not just mean "God" as we understand it in English. As Strongs describes its primary definition, Jesus can rightly be called "a god". It does not mean that there are two gods, but two "divine mighty ones", only one of which is "ho theos" and he is clearly identified if you have eyes to see.

"Theos" is a word that described all the Greek gods, who were all distinguishable by name......but the God of the Jews had no name to identify him because the Jews had expunged it from their speech on a false premise. The ambiguous title "Lord" was substituted and then confused with the "Lord" Jesus Christ.
And the Greek had no capital letters or punctuation, so the use of capital letters to convey something that was never there, is also fraudulent.

We have to use the whole Bible, not just the parts that seem to agree with what we want to believe.”
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,540
29,058
Pacific Northwest
✟813,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others

And this entire argument they make crumbles apart because it's not hard to find lots of examples where theos, without the definite article, is used in reference to God the Father.

The JW argument is built upon a deeply flawed premise.

Something else to consider: While JW's won't care about what early Christians believed or said, as they believe the Church fell into apostasy. It seems worth noting, at least for your own benefit, that if this were the case, that ho theos always refers to "Jehovah", and theos is just "a god", then why did this never occur to all the Greek speaking Christians throughout history?

For us English-speakers Koine Greek is an ancient, distant, and foreign language. But for hundreds of years in antiquity it was the language tens, even hundreds of thousands of Christians spoke every day, that's why the New Testament is written in it--it was the common language of the entire ancient Mediterranean world. This was the language Christians spoke around the dinner table, it's the language they spoke at church. For thousands and even millions of Christians throughout history the New Testament was written in their native tongue, they didn't need a translation, they spoke the same language which God's word was written in.

That's a huge problem whenever anyone comes along and thinks they have a new and special insight into a language. It's like someone who only learned a handful of English words and phrases from a magazine trying to tell you or me that the every-day English words we use don't mean what we think they mean. That our English is wrong, and they are here to correct it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

BPPLEE

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,034
7,496
61
Montgomery
✟253,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes she always refers back to the original language to make it fit her beliefs it’s like you can’t read the Bible without a secret decoder ring.
 
Upvote 0

PsaltiChrysostom

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2018
1,047
1,005
Virginia
✟79,486.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Koine Greek and Byzantine Greek are still used today liturgically and is still the official language of the Greek Orthodox church. So it has never really fallen out of use.
 
Upvote 0

BPPLEE

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,034
7,496
61
Montgomery
✟253,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I really like this Bible too. The LSV Bible
 
Upvote 0

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
20,652
4,404
Midlands
Visit site
✟754,929.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As of late I have been looking more into the early Aramaic texts. I believe most of what Jesus spoke was in the language of the people, mainly Aramaic. I wonder if the labor and regard we give to Koine is misplaced, since those texts would themselves be a translation from Aramaic (at least the gospels and the words Jesus actually spoke.) Of course Jesus spoke Hebrew... at least in the temple with the Priests, Scribes, and Sadducees. But I doubt the fishermen and laborers had knowledge of Greek. I am sure there are people here who know more and better than I.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
13,831
5,602
European Union
✟228,639.00
Country
Czech Republic
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Matthew and Luke were both educated, so Greek was no problem for them.

Mark was accompanying Paul and Barnabas, so he was not some "just a fisherman" either.

And John, though "just a fisherman", had quite a smooth simple Greek and incorporated even some Greek philosophy concepts into his writings. He does not try to use complex sentence structures or advanced Greek vocabulary, but keeps it simple, yet clean.

Paul was educated, which is also visible on his Greek in his letters.

There is actually no serious evidence that anything we have in the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic.
 
Upvote 0

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
20,652
4,404
Midlands
Visit site
✟754,929.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Thanks
I suspect there would be some evidence of a translation from Aramaic to Greek, at least to the trained eye. Just as when you hear a French person speaking English.... there are little clues in the usage and vocabulary.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
13,831
5,602
European Union
✟228,639.00
Country
Czech Republic
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thanks
I suspect there would be some evidence of a translation from Aramaic to Greek, at least to the trained eye. Just as when you hear a French person speaking English.... there are little clues in the usage and vocabulary.
Probably. As my English is structured in the way I am used to speak in my native language, including some silly errors a native English speaker would not make.

But its something different from saying that the Greek NT is a translation of some Aramaic texts or that Aramaic NT is somehow better or more useful.
 
Upvote 0

PsaltiChrysostom

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2018
1,047
1,005
Virginia
✟79,486.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
There are a couple of church fathers, Papias in particular, who wrote that Matthew wrote down the sayings of Christ in Aramaic. However, that document is now lost. Personally, I do believe that there may have been some early drafts or maybe the 1st century equivalent to post-its, where speakers had some notes, but those never were copied once the full Gospels were written.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,540
29,058
Pacific Northwest
✟813,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others

I've always thought that Papias' account seemed to give at least some credence to the Q-hypothesis, at least perhaps to some degree. That said, such a document is now lost, if it existed. But that is, of course, a far cry from the Four Gospels as being originally composed in Aramaic--that just doesn't really make any sense, and there's no evidence for it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
20,652
4,404
Midlands
Visit site
✟754,929.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Thank... I purchased a book that says similar about Matthew and presents an English version.

The Original Gospels: an English Translation from the Old Syriac manuscripts, the Latin Codex Vercellensis and the most Ancient Greek Papyri: Dumdei, Mark A: 9781508911463: Amazon.com: Books
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟291,297.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I do wish you would stop seemingly 'not promoting' the NKJV Bible, because it also has been subjected to the NU Critical Text modifications. It is NOT a pure translation from the Textus Receptus like the 1611 KJV is.
 
Upvote 0

SeventhFisherofMen

You cannot fool Jesus
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2013
3,441
1,719
33
CA
✟493,219.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
US-Republican
I like your name and logo, very cool
 
Upvote 0

BPPLEE

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,034
7,496
61
Montgomery
✟253,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I do wish you would stop seemingly 'not promoting' the NKJV Bible, because it also has been subjected to the NU Critical Text modifications. It is NOT a pure translation from the Textus Receptus like the 1611 KJV is.
It’s a translation from the TR. It has notes indicating when there is variance from the critical text. I like it because it’s very close to the KJV but uses modern English.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟291,297.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It’s a translation from the TR. It has notes indicating when there is variance from the critical text. I like it because it’s very close to the KJV but uses modern English.
Just because it allows mods from the Critical Text is enough for me to want to not trust it, plus how it gives some readings very similar to the NIV when the KJV does not agree.
 
Upvote 0

BPPLEE

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,034
7,496
61
Montgomery
✟253,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just because it allows mods from the Critical Text is enough for me to want to not trust it, plus how it gives some readings very similar to the NIV when the KJV does not agree.
That’s fine. The KJV is an excellent translation. If you prefer it that’s what you should use.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟291,297.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That’s fine. The KJV is an excellent translation. If you prefer it that’s what you should use.
I have several Bible versions in my BibleSoft study program, so it's not about just the KJV only either. It's about warning the brethren of what's going on with Gnostic infiltration into Bible versions. You did an excellent job with exposing a lot of that in your main post. But then you turned around and recommended the NKJV which has been corrupted too. No big deal if you like it and want to use it, but why not reveal that it too has been subject to some modifications from the NU Critical text? In my strong... opinion, that's a huge matter, simply because they are claiming, as you also did, that the NKJV is like an update of the 1611 KJV from the same Textus Receptus Greek Traditional text, when it is not 'purely' from the Textus Receptus only.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,259
1,917
60
✟220,718.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican

Ok, let's just put on our wine bibs and start sipping.

Trying to put a purity test onto any one of these texts is foolhardy at best, and people should know better than to try.

The earlier critical texts, while more correct in so many areas throughout the bible, they suffer from some major pruning throughout the books. And while those sections that were pruned from the earlier texts are found in the later texts, those texts suffer from later additions and outright doctrinal changes at times. Neither is pure.

No one wants to compare them critically line by line and make a bible that way, they choose either the earlier or the later and then make their bible. It's just too much work and too costly to do it that way. It's gonna take a single person with the talent and ambition to join them together correctly. Then you will have a better bible. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking either one of them is the pure text. GOD can show you differently.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0