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What's it take to be a Messianic?

yedida

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As long as there are two or more choices in anything, somebody is going to take the second one, which is why we have 900 Christian and messianic denominations with different beliefs.

I never read anywhere in Torah that there is a choice. Sorry, He did kind of give a choice but strongly suggested one over the other, "I set before you today, life and death. Choose ye, therefore, Life."
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I remember another conversation elsewhere that went in-depth with the issue (here ).

Fpr myself, personally, I think that there's a lot of beauty in seeing how the lineages of Christ document the King line (Judah) and the Priest line (Levi) of Jesus Christ. For the King line (Judah) comes Joseph....whereas the Priest line (Levi) would comes through Mary's mother.

On Elizabeth:


Luke 1:35
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”


As one ministry said best:


We find this in Luke 1:5, as scripture shows that Mary's Cousin Elizabeth is a Levite. Mary and Elizabeth's mothers were sisters. Below we see that Elizabeth was of the genealogy of Aaron. Aaron was a Levite (of Levi) and thus Elisabeth was of the tribe of Levi. Elisabeth's mother and Mary's mother were sisters and both Levites, thus Mary was of the tribe of Levi. Below we see that Zacharias (Elisabeth's husband) was a Levitical priest, and a Levitical Priest could only marry a full blood Levite woman if he was to perform duties in the Temple of God. In verse 8 below we see that Elisabeth's husband was indeed a practicing priest, therefore Elisabeth would have to have been a full blood Levite. And for Elizabeth to be a full blood Levite the her mother had to be a full blood Levite. Elizabeth's mother is the sister of Mary's mother and thus was also a full blood Levite. This documents that Mary was born of a full blood Levite woman......


Luke 1:5-9
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. 8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, 9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. (KJV)


NOTE: Elizabeth and Zacharias were the mother and father of John The Baptist..

Perhaps its just me...but I was under the impression that the line of Levi and the line of Judah would've met together with Christ simply by family dynamics. For the cousin of Jesus, John the Baptist, was of the Levitical line since his father was a priest. Many say that John's line was the true line of the Levitical priesthood whereas others were either hijacked/corrupt or false due to a loss of data. But with Christ, his background was from the tribe of Judah---whom Jacob promised in Gensis 49 that kings would come forth from and the Messiah would come. Thus, John the Baptist would have been akin to the priest who ordained the king...with Jesus fitting the role as ruler. This would have run parallel to the way that the priesthood was set up that was corrupt in their sacrifices and worship of the temple....and thus, the priesthood persecuting John and Jesus as "false" were really in error for missing the true KING and PRIEST to come.

If there was a Levitical background in Christ's history through Mary, that's cool to see..and there are other solid organizations that support the theory from logic. One can go here for more info on the matter, as they show how Mary's mother was the sister of Elizibeth, who was descended from Levi. The Levitical side of Mary's lineage probaby would've taken a backseat to the fact that lineage was often determined by the Father's background.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Without the synagogue system, there was no gathering place for worship in the cities, unless you were in Jerusalem. While many in Messianic Judaism tie the Sabbath to Synagogue services, this was a later addition.

Interesting to consider what the MJish movement would look like in the event that synagouges were not prevalent
 
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mishkan

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Yeshua's mother, Miriam was a cousin to Elisheva
I have heard this said before, but can find no evidence of this relationship. Could you please share a source for this idea? Does it come from the KJV mistranslation of Luke 1:36?

συγγενής
This word is almost always rendered with the more generic, "kin". It is closer to the Yiddish use of "landsman" than to a biological cousin.
 
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Avodat

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I never read anywhere in Torah that there is a choice. Sorry, He did kind of give a choice but strongly suggested one over the other, "I set before you today, life and death. Choose ye, therefore, Life."

There were two choices: take it or leave it!

Sadly most chose the latter!
 
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pat34lee

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I never read anywhere in Torah that there is a choice. Sorry, He did kind of give a choice but strongly suggested one over the other, "I set before you today, life and death. Choose ye, therefore, Life."

When I say choices, I mean what people choose to believe. Torah or not. Yeshua or Jesus. Grace, gifts of the Spirit, is it literal vs. parables or moral tales.
 
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Lulav

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Please show scripture which says Elizabeth was a Levite?

And please give your logic on how that proves Mary was also a Levite.


In the days of Herod, King of Y'hudah, there was a cohen named Z'kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva.

"You have a relative, Elisheva, who is an old woman; and everyone says she is barren. But she has conceived a son and is six months pregnant!.................. Without delay, Miryam set out and hurried to the town in the hill country of Y'hudah
 
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Henaynei

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mishkan said:
And how would you, as an outside observer, discern whether someone was following one or the other?

By their fruit you shall know then.

BTW - fruit is less the individual act and more the accumulated outcomes of accumulated acts. In other words you will know their core values by the impact of their choices, over a period of time.
 
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ChavaK

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And how would you, as an outside observer, discern whether someone was following one or the other?
If someone was contemplating their naval in order to be at one with
the universe or assuming "feel good" roles not given to them by G-d, I would
doubt they are attempting to connect to G-d.
 
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xDenax

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I think there is a difference between being "spiritual" and being a follower of the personal God of the Hebrews, whose name is YHWH.

Don't you?

I think I had a bit of a personal interest in the Reconstructionist issue and that is why I commented. I identify with a lot of their theology and I know I wouldn't appreciate it if someone was on the internet stating I don't believe in God. I have actually been accused of such and I do not like it one bit (ironically it's always when I'm discussing something I learned from an Orthodox source since some Christians feel they know all about Judaism and clearly what I'm saying has nothing to do with it). Just because a person doesn't relate to God exactly the same way you do doesn't mean they don't believe in God. Their lanauge may be entirely different and their way of connecting very different. That doesn't make them atheistic.
 
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Qnts2

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What make you think that Miriam was a descendent of Aaron?
The verse you quote doesn't say that.

And it is entirely possible for cousins to be from different tribes. A women from the tribe of Levi can marry a man of the tribe of Judah. Miriams father is of the tribe of Judah, so Miriam would be from the tribe of Judah.

It is likely that the linage in Luke is that of Miriam, which means Miriam is from the tribe of Judah.
 
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Qnts2

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I see several errors in this article.

While Elizabeth was of the line of Aaron, the article states that Zecharias would only marry a full blood Levite woman. That is an error.

The Cohanim were restricted as to whom they could marry. But the restrictions do not include a restriction that the wife be a 'full blooded Levite'.

There restrictions are as follows:

1. Priests can not marry a divorcee.
2. He can not marry a convert (wife must be Jewish).
3. He can not marry a women who is not a virgin.
4. He can not marry a daughter of a Cohen who is the product of an illegal marriage of a Cohen.

There is no tribal restriction. And tribal linage is passed down from the father for inheritance rights so there is no law which requires the mother to be a of the same tribe as the father, for the daughter to be 'full blooded' of any tribe.

The next issue is the assumption that Elizabeth's mother is the sister of Mary's mother. That is not substantiated in scripture. Plus, since tribal affiliation is passed down by the father, Elizabeths mother might have married a Levite while Miriams mother married a son of Judah.
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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I think the question should be is there a differentiation between a Messianic Jewish congregation and a reform/conservative synagogue. It's no accident that the likes of the MJAA and UMJC have affiliated synagogue's located in Jewish communities that also have reform/ conservative/ orthodox synagogue's. Mostly located in the big metros where there is more population of Jews.

Why? Because WE the Messianic synagogue are part of the same community as YOU the reform/conservative synagogue.

What's it take to involved in a Messianic Jewish community? The better question is 'what's it take not to be involved/ associated with a Messianic Jewish synagogue?' I see it all the time online. When you disassociate with the Jewish community you disassociate with both Messianic Judaism and Judaism, in other words you disassociate with the communities at a whole. By doing this, this is how you get a lot of funky doctrines primary from Hebrew Roots entities or splinter groups. I think the cause is not being socialized with the Jewish communities by choice or by location. I see a lot of these splinter groups are not located in Jewish communities because of location. Yes it's not their fault. FFOZ prior to their changing beliefs served believers who weren't located and/ not socialized in Jewish communities with study's, teachings etc that were very in line with Messianic Judaism.

In closing 'we the Messianic synagogue are part of the same community as you the reform/ conservative etc synagogue. This can apply even if you're not by physical location. That what it takes to be a Messianic Judaism.
 
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yedida

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Thank you!
I have wanted nothing more than to identify with the people of the Family whose Abba has "adopted" me into that Family. My genetics will not ever change, but over time in this new family, just about everything else about me has. As it should.
 
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mishkan

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Fair enough.

So, as one who has looked into Recon with some real interest, do you think Recons believe in the personal God of the Hebrews, who created the world, relates to humans as a person, and gives us instructions to follow?
 
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xDenax

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Fair enough.

So, as one who has looked into Recon with some real interest, do you think Recons believe in the personal God of the Hebrews, who created the world, relates to humans as a person, and gives us instructions to follow?

They are pretty clear that they do not believe God directly gave instructions to Israel or that he directs our lives on a daily basis. However all of this is irrelevent to your first comment. You claimed their official stance is that they do not believe in God. Chava and I have both told you that isn't true. That was my only point.
 
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xDenax

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Why? Because WE the Messianic synagogue are part of the same community as YOU the reform/conservative synagogue.

Chava is Orthodox. But anyway, exactly how are the Messianics a part of the same community as Reform/Conservative?
 
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Lulav

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I guess it all depends on how you want to look at it. Joseph was from the house of David.

Some passages to consider about Messiah.


Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, was from the line of Zadok.
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Chava is Orthodox. But anyway, exactly how are the Messianics a part of the same community as Reform/Conservative?

I'm not referring to reform/conservative only but most believing Jews who come to the Lord come from a reform, conservative or secular background. The Messianic synagogue's that I know that are affiliated with the likes of MJAA and UMJC are reform/conservative.

You asked how... I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood that had 3 synagogue's in the neighborhood. In the late '70's/ early '80's my Messianic synagogue opened it's doors in the same neighborhood. It's not necessarily a pro active being apart but the essence is Messianic synagogue's don't consider themselves apart from the community of Jews. Like I said it's no accident that Messianic congregation's are located in or close to already existing Jewish communities.

Mishkan has a better handle on this being involved with Messianic Judaism for a long time. He's definately an expert in this area and can contribute a lot to this discussion.
 
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A

aniello

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You and Chava are certainly correct as far as what I have seen and been told in our metro area where we have Recon, Reform, Conservative, Chabad, and Modern Orthodox. Wife and I attend Conservative regularly, our M.O. when we can due to our age and distance.
 
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