• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What you aren't being told about astronomy

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Dyson and Williams (p.36) say, 'Ultraviolet photodissociation occurs for most molecules unshielded by grains in a few hundred years.' Obviously interstellar organic compounds survive long enough after their formation to reach large enough abundances to be detected by radio telescopes.

Where do you think that interstellar clouds come from? They are formed by compression of the diffuse interstellar medium; giant molecular clouds have masses of thousands to millions of solar masses, far larger than any planetary system.

Again, you must remember that interstellar clouds are opaque,

Thank you for finding time to reply. I can see the contradictions in your understanding.

If a organic molecule can only survive a few hundred years (I guess it should be much shorter in time) in space, then it is a much much shorter time period than which is needed to form a denser clouds. How much time is needed for a diluted mass of gases to condense into a denser gas mass in space so that gas molecules at the center of the mass could be protected from the destruction of cosmic rays? Is hundreds of years long enough for that? I don't think so.

I am not talking about clouds that eventually formed the star. I am talking about the cloud which formed asteroids, comets and planets. I assume the cloud would more sparse and would take even longer time to condense into a comet (I even doubt if the function of condensation could do it at all). And the effect of "protection" could be simply negligible. To see the whole process in a simple picture, the destruction of any organic molecule in space should be much faster than its formation. If so, how is it possible to find any organic molecule embedded in a comet if the origin of organic molecule started from atoms?

It would be much more reasonable to assume the organic molecules found in comets are "residues" of a much much larger organic material. It survived the cosmic destruction and deterioration and ended up as much smaller particles in the comet.
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,102
7,434
31
Wales
✟427,846.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
evolution

an unfolding, opening out, or working out; process of development, as from a simple to a complex form, or of gradual, progressive change, as in a social and economic structure
a result or product of this; thing evolved
a movement that is part of a series or pattern
a pattern produced, or seemingly produced, by such a series of movements: the evolutions of a fancy skater

Where did you get that definition from?
 
Upvote 0

loveofourlord

Newbie
Feb 15, 2014
9,131
5,077
✟324,683.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Nope - that's not what he said at all.

Monkeys did not evolve into humans. Humans and monkeys both evolved from a common ancestor.

...wich for the last time was by definition a monkey. we split off from monkeys after monkeys already split into old and new world, so therefore we are descended from monkeys, ancient ones, but monkeys non the less.
 
Upvote 0

loveofourlord

Newbie
Feb 15, 2014
9,131
5,077
✟324,683.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
More like there is a fence around your property that
you cannot pass. You can walk any direction, but only
about the same distance from the center.

Why do you think GMO's are the big thing now? Because
you have to directly change the genes to get past the
natural limits of heredity.

...no GMO's are big because you can make jumps that would take thousands or millions of years, or yes wouldn't be possible since your not going to no matter how hard you try to get a fish to breed with a flower or such.
 
Upvote 0

loveofourlord

Newbie
Feb 15, 2014
9,131
5,077
✟324,683.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If I recall correctly from high school, it would be cladistically wrong to call that creature a "monkey", just like it would be cladistically wrong to call the ancestors of Tiktaalik "fish".

A "fish" is a specific modern animal (well, "group of animals"...) and a very different beast then the sea life that existed before any creatures roamed the land. Doesn't the same go for "monkeys"?

Perhaps I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. :)

Problem is that new world and old world is already called monkeys, so all of their common ancestors would be monkeys, including our common ancestor with them wich was after the split.
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,725
USA
Visit site
✟150,370.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,102
7,434
31
Wales
✟427,846.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Here is the online dictionary.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Evolution

BTW
I am not claiming that the excerpt is the sole definition.
Only that it is the way in which the thread-starter used it.

It's funny though since, following your link, they actually give a definition of evolution with regards to astronomy which reads:

3. Astronomy Change in the structure, chemical composition, or dynamical properties of a celestial object or system such as a planetary system, star, or galaxy. Evolution often changes the observable or measurable characteristics of the object or system.

I'm just as to why you didn't use that definition when it so obviously has more bearing on the topic at hand (astronomy) than the hodge-podge of non-scientific definitions you posted.
 
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,428
3,005
54
the Hague NL
✟84,932.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Um, hi, evolution has nothing to do with other planets, or even earth's geology.
You mistake the theory of evolution regarding biology with the whole idea of evolution and the meaning of the words "evolution" and "evolving".

O, wait, this was several pages ago... sorry...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Radrook
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,102
7,434
31
Wales
✟427,846.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
You mistake the theory of evolution regarding biology with the whole idea of evolution and the meaning of the words "evolution" and "evolving".

There is no 'whole' idea of evolution. It's just a facet of the English language: words that used to have a single specific meaning are now used in more colloquial sense. Like how theory used to solely refer to a scientific fact can now be used to refer to any idea a person has.
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,102
7,434
31
Wales
✟427,846.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Yes there is.
Evidence?

It can be spiritual and physical, concerning dead and living nature.
No. No it doesn't. And if you believe so, then you're going to have to show evidence for this.

Things that evolve undergo evolution.
Well duh. But, again, you cannot use evolution to refer to everything that changes, at least if you're using the scientific term of evolution.
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,102
7,434
31
Wales
✟427,846.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Just read on or grab a dictionary.
No, you made the claim, you support it.

Yes. Yes it does.
Again: evidence? You just simply saying it, doesn't make it so.

Science does not determine what words mean.
If you're trying to use a scientific word in a scientific context, then yes it does.
If you're trying to use a scientific word in a non-scientific context, then yes it does.
If you're not trying to use a scientific word in a non-scientific context... then you're just speaking gibberish.
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,725
USA
Visit site
✟150,370.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
It's funny though since, following your link, they actually give a definition of evolution with regards to astronomy which reads:

3. Astronomy Change in the structure, chemical composition, or dynamical properties of a celestial object or system such as a planetary system, star, or galaxy. Evolution often changes the observable or measurable characteristics of the object or system.

I'm just as to why you didn't use that definition when it so obviously has more bearing on the topic at hand (astronomy) than the hodge-podge of non-scientific definitions you posted.

Because, as I just clearly explained, it is irrelevant to the belief that the word is only used for biological evolution and that the thread-starter is misusing it which he isn't.

BTW
All definitions of a word don't have to be related to science in order to be legitimate definitions of a word. So your premise is flawed.
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,725
USA
Visit site
✟150,370.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
You mistake the theory of evolution regarding biology with the whole idea of evolution and the meaning of the words "evolution" and "evolving".

O, wait, this was several pages ago... sorry...

A basic unfamiliarity with the extensive diversity of English might cause the straitjacketing of words into just one meaning phenomenon.
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,102
7,434
31
Wales
✟427,846.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Because, as I just clearly explained, it is irrelevant to the belief that the word is only used for biological evolution and that the thread-starter is misusing it which he isn't.

BTW
All definitions of a word don't have to be related to science in order to be legitimate definitions of a word. So your premise is flawed.

I'd start on whole bit about not using the right definition, but that would take this thread in a whole over direction.
 
Upvote 0

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,539
2,725
USA
Visit site
✟150,370.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Astrophile

Newbie
Aug 30, 2013
2,338
1,559
77
England
✟256,526.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Widowed
If an organic molecule can only survive a few hundred years (I guess it should be much shorter in time) in space, then it is a much much shorter time period than which is needed to form a denser clouds. How much time is needed for a diluted mass of gases to condense into a denser gas mass in space so that gas molecules at the center of the mass could be protected from the destruction of cosmic rays? Is hundreds of years long enough for that? I don't think so.

The sentence I quoted from The Physics of the Interstellar Medium was 'Ultraviolet photodissociation occurs for most molecules unshielded by grains in a few hundred years.' (Notice the emphases.) Molecules shielded by grains in dense opaque interstellar clouds survive much longer than molecules in the diffuse interstellar medium.

By the way, you can buy The Physics of the Interstellar Medium from Amazon for $31.95; I think that you would learn from it. (No, I am not one of the authors.)

I do not know how long a dense cloud of gas takes to form out of the diffuse interstellar medium. The time for a dense cloud (n ~ 10^11/m³) to collapse to a protostar in hydrostatic equilibrium is about 100,000 years.

However, your question is not strictly relevant. As I tried to explain previously, complex organic molecules are synthesized by ion-molecule reactions inside dense opaque clouds after the clouds have been formed. The ion-molecule reactions are initiated by the ionisation of H2 molecules by cosmic rays. According to Dyson and Williams (p. 41), in dense clouds (n > 10^10/m³) 'the level of ionisation is probably controlled by [cosmic ray ionisation] (rather than by photons which will not penetrate such a dense cloud)'. Molecules formed by these ion-molecule reactions in opaque clouds, where they can be adsorbed onto dust grains, can survive for much longer than hundreds of years.

I am not talking about clouds that eventually formed the star. I am talking about the cloud which formed asteroids, comets and planets. I assume the cloud would more sparse and would take even longer time to condense into a comet (I even doubt if the function of condensation could do it at all).

Again, you have misunderstood the formation of stars and planets. Planets, asteroids and comets cannot form from interstellar clouds; they form from the denser nebulae (protoplanetary discs, or 'proplyds') surrounding young stars. Terrestrial planets, asteroids and comets form by the accretion of solid particles, not by the gravitational instability of a cloud of gas. The evidence from meteorites shows that asteroids took a few million years to form, whereas the Earth took tens of millions of years. However, none of this is relevant to the formation and survival of molecules in dense interstellar clouds.

And the effect of "protection" could be simply negligible. To see the whole process in a simple picture, the destruction of any organic molecule in space should be much faster than its formation.

How do you make this out? Why do you think that the effect of protection would be negligible? After all, radio astronomers can observe the spectra of interstellar molecules (some of them quite complex organic compounds) in dense clouds, and can even measure their abundances; the dense clouds contain masses of organic compounds similar to the masses of the Earth or the Moon. As I have explained already, the clouds are opaque, so that rates of ultraviolet photo-dissociation are low, and the molecules are built up inside the dense clouds by ion-molecule reactions initiated by cosmic ray ionisation of hydrogen molecules. Comets are formed from the dense protoplanetary disc surrounding the young star after the collapse of the interstellar cloud.

If so, how is it possible to find any organic molecule embedded in a comet if the origin of organic molecule started from atoms?

It would be much more reasonable to assume the organic molecules found in comets are "residues" of a much much larger organic material.

This would only be reasonable if you could point to a 'much much larger organic material' that could be the source of the organic molecules in interstellar clouds and in comets. Can you do this?

It survived the cosmic destruction and deterioration and ended up as much smaller particles in the comet.

I have not heard of this. Can you explain what 'cosmic destruction and deterioration' you are talking about, and where you obtained your information about it? It would help if you could give a link to your source, or could cite a book or an article in a scientific journal.
 
Upvote 0