What would you tell singles about Pre-Nups?

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LinkH

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I do believe Jesus would think ChristianGolfer has the right attitude. Jesus would want the deep commitment to each other, and wants that to happen despite laws, commandments, or whatever else you want to call them.

Why would others question that motivation? There is no signs of problems here. I choose to be a Jesus follower (Christian), and I may not follow all the church's doctrine or believe all the theories people put out about the proper way of doing that. I feel him in my heart, and the presense of the Holy Spirit within me!

It is good to sense the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, and peace. The Spirit also takes from what is Christ's, and gives it to us, and Christ had much to say about divorce. If we are walking in the Spirit, we will love God's word.

Even as believers with the Spirit, we should remember 'beware, let he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.' We also have to continually put to death the lusts of the flesh. If there is something wrong with our thinking, it can lead to sin. As believers, we should not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of our minds. This isn't a once and for all thing we have to do, it is an ongoing thing.

If we have some wrong idea in our heart, some stronghold that we allow to be there, it can cause us trouble later on.

This is what I am addressing when it comes to divorce. If I love my wife, I commit to her. When I took her, I took her 'till death do us part' not 'until I feel like I need a divorce.' If I had it in my mind that we were together as long as we both felt like it, my commitment to her would probably much more shallow.

How deep was Jesus' commitment? It took Him from the garden all the way through until "It is finished." He could have quit at any time. Doesn't that show His love? Could we have known how great His love was if His commitment did not go so far as His laying down His life for us?

This could be the 'great mystery' the bible speaks about - or part of it - and people would never know it. They are too busy making sure they line up with a bunch of rules they seem to see in the bible. Yet, Jesus spoke endlessly on a heart change. An outlook change. A life change.

And how do our hearts change? The Bible says, "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee." Jesus taught that he that hears these sayings of His is does not do them is like the man who builds His house upon the sand. But the one who hears and does them is like the man that builds his house upon the rock. The rains and wind knock down the house built on the sand, but the house built on the rock remains.

I suppose you could accuse me of being a Pharisee, of holding to 'rules' for believing that we need to know God's word and examine our lives in light of it. When I read the Bible, I don't see walking by the Spirit as a matter of simply going by the feelings inside without holding to the word. The man who wrote scripture did not see it that way. Of course, he was a self-admitted Pharisee even after his conversion, but one saved by grace and one Christ Himself chose to reveal mysteries to and to preach to the nations.

Link - you are missing the so much MORE than, 'It's great that you want to be together.' Sadly, you don't seem to be able to appreciate that. I have never been able to wrap my head around this concept of: you seem to be doing life well, but are you REALLY following all the rules?

The 'following all the rules' line were your words, not mine. I do appreciate two people wanting to be together. But having this thought in your mind that we are only going to stay together as long as we both want to is a pretty flimsy foundation for a marriage. The marriage might survive if both people want to be together, but that's not the type of commitment that Christ wants us to have. It needs to be much deeper than that. Christ's love is much deeper than that. Christ Himself struggled with His own wants and desires in the garden, but He submitted Himself to His Father's will.

"As long as we both think it is a good idea" might work for a marriage that doesn't face much trouble as far as not getting a divorce is concerned. But will it really hold up to some of the rocky experiences a lot of couples face? What would happen if your partner fell into some kind of addiction? Or what if your partner gets Alzheimers or some other illness and you have to change their diapers? The type of love needed has to have a strong aspect of commitment to it.

Which type of marriage would you rather have, anyway? Would you rather be with a partner who wants to be with you as long as it is good for him, or he's committed to loving you until one of you die, no matter what?

Your missing the spirit of what is being said. Jesus is pleased as punch with a deep commitment that is healthy, loving, and allowed him to make them one flesh. They don't need to do it due to 'rules'. They did it because of the transformation the Lord made in their lifes. WHY would he be displeased at that?

Again 'due to the rules' is your terminology. We should love deeply from our hearts. But what happens when it occurs to you that you did something unloving? What do you do? If you have the word of God, you can read it and examine your life in light of it. And through it, the Spirit of God may illuminate areas in your life where you need to repent and change. If you just go by your internal feelings, will that happen? God can correct people without a Bible in their hands, but if He gives us something like that, doesn't He expect us to be faithful to use it and apply it?

James says that he that hears and does the word shall be blessed in his deed. He doesn't condemn those who hear and do. He doesn't warn them that they will turn into unspiritual Pharisees.

Honestly, can you really say that every moment of married life is pleasant? Overall, if I look back at my marriage so far, it's a good thing, a joyous thing, and a blessing. Not everyone can say that. But I can say there have been some unpleasant moments, stressful moments, even distressing moments. I suspect a lot of people in those moments might think about divorce. I can't recall ever considering it myself, and that's probably because Jesus' and the apostles' teachings on divorce were so engrained in my mind from memorizing Matthew and I Corinthians as a teenager and having to study it over and over again to do so, and the convictions about it I developed during that time. But if I didn't think that way, if I had a stronghold in my mind that told me divorce was okay if we weren't getting along, I might consider divorce during a difficult time. A couple that allows for divorce if they aren't getting may just get one if they go through a rough patch for a few months. If divorce is not an option, you have to work it out.

If someone is gritting their teeth trying to do what is right in their own strength, isn't that a better position to be in to ask God for help and to let Him intervene by His grace than the position of opposing God's word and going in their own direction?
 
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LinkH

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I thought we were having a banter. Now I'm worried that you think I'm insulting my wife and Germans.

Btw, no offense against your wife intended. I've only known a few Germans. One of them... well he tries to present himself and his accomplishments in the best light.
 
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hijklmnop

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Goodspeed....


no need to be insulting, but I am curious...but why DON'T you expect me to understand? Am I stupid, not a Christian, or someone who doesn't value my marriage or commitment to it? I can assure you that if that's what you're implying, you're wrong.

Anyways, I understand your points, I just disagree with them.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong or unChristian about recognizing that we live in a world where sin and brokenness and mistakes happen. It's not like people with prenups get married TO divorce...they just recognize IMO that it MIGHT happen despite best efforts. relationships can't be counted on entirely as they are a union of two fallible human beings. The best of intentions on ones wedding day don't mean that we can control the future, especially when it depends in the willingness of another. It takes two for a marriage to last. I think recognizing and giving a nod to the possibility of the worst that might happen is mature.

And frankly, I'd hate feel like if my husband became abusive or cheated on me, that divorce would NOT be an option. I'm a wife, not a slave with no choices. Even Jesus made allowance for divorce. To condemn others who do the same seems ridiculous to me.
 
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LinkH

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I don't think there is anything inherently wrong or unChristian about recognizing that we live in a world where sin and brokenness and mistakes happen. It's not like people with prenups get married TO divorce...they just recognize IMO that it MIGHT happen despite best efforts. relationships can't be counted on entirely as they are a union of two fallible human beings. The best of intentions on ones wedding day don't mean that we can control the future, especially when it depends in the willingness of another. It takes two for a marriage to last. I think recognizing and giving a nod to the possibility of the worst that might happen is mature.

I think we all realize that in our legal system, even if you don't want to divorce, your partner can go do some paperwork to the state and legally divorce you, at least according to the laws of men.

One of the problems with pre-nups, unless their is a good reason for them (e.g. settle inheritance issues for existing children, etc.), is they typically signal a lack of trust. Part of getting married is taking a risk, especially in our environment. It also signal how much the person getting married values their stuff.

I suppose I could understand why someone getting married through an arranged marriage would not trust his bride yet. I think most of those cultures typically have low divorce rates. The rates may be higher for minorities living in the US. Still, I don't think it's a good way to start a marriage. Marrying someone and sharing your property in common is also a way of showing how much you care for that person, and as a man, it it's a way of showing I will provide for my wife. If I were a young single woman wanting to get married, that would most likely be a deal-breaker for me.

It sounds like the man wants a really traditional woman in terms of her commitment, but wants to be kind of 'modern' in how he protects his property.

And frankly, I'd hate feel like if my husband became abusive or cheated on me, that divorce would NOT be an option. I'm a wife, not a slave with no choices. Even Jesus made allowance for divorce. To condemn others who do the same seems ridiculous to me.

I think there is a big difference between what you are talking about and just thinking it's okay to divorce if either one of you or both get tired of being married.

What people say on their wedding day and the commitments they make don't usually make any allowances for adultery or other scenarios, though, at least not the traditional vows.
 
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Puffinstuff

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Yeah I never heard anyone say "just because you are tired of being married".Even though in the end that's pretty much why anyone gets a divorce because they are tired of living with them.But its not "just because" for most.

And yeah how romantic would that be in the vows.Til death us do part OR if you beat the crap out of me and the kids and or if you sleep with everything you see in a skirt ummmm Oh and if you go to prison for life for some major crime like murder.
 
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Puffinstuff

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Part of getting married is taking a risk, especially in our environment. It also signal how much the person getting married values their stuff.

Its still a risk marrying even with a prenup.Prenups don't guarantee your heart wont get broken also they aren't usually writing out the person gets nothing.(material).And I'm sorry I would rather have my stuff after I'm dumped than not my stuff .Not to mention a signal on valuing stuff? Do you realize how many people stay married for financial reasons?No prenup just the prospect of financial hardship for themselves and or their kids?They value their "stuff" just as much as someone who arranged for a prenup to have some sort of protection .
 
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Puffinstuff

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And I don't understand what the shame is if the agreement is in writing and pertains to assets? I don't know many that don't have some sort of "pre-nup" that's oral and its conditions for divorce.I cant count how many times I have heard a man or a woman say "I already made it clear to him/her they cheat I'm out the door".Or "he hits me once he knows it I'm out of there".

People have pre-nups.LOTS of people have pre-nups .ORALLY.
 
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LinkH

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A) nobody has mentioned getting a divorce because they get "tired" of being married so I'm not sure where you're pulling that from

I may be getting my threads confused. I did not see anyone say they would be married until they were tired of it, and I did not mean to imply that anyone had used that term. But ChristianGolfer said something along the lines of her and her husband being married as long as they were both pleased to be married. That would seem to me to imply that if either of them got tired of it, they felt free to divorce. IMO, that's a different philosophy from what you were talking about.

B) what do the vows themselves have to do with anything? Just because I didn't say "unless you cheat on me" doesn't mean I now have to stay married while he cheats on me with Tom, Dick, and Harry.
There is another ethical issue there. If a man gets married and agrees to put a fresh cut rose on his wife's pillow every single morning for the rest of his life and he doesn't do it, he makes himself a liar. He didn't have to agree to such a thing, but he did of his own free will.

Especially nowadays, if we want to get married, we don't have to use the traditional 'vows' to take our spouses 'till death do us part.' But if someone divorces, aren't they breaking that agreement.

I don't think most Protestant wedding 'vows' are really vows, not in the sense of being an 'oath.' 'Vow' gets used loosely especially the way it's used in newspaper headlines, and the word has been watered down. If I'm not mistaken, Roman Catholics may actually use the word 'swear', but I'm not that familiar with Roman Catholic wedding 'vows'. It makes sense considering Roman Catholic views on marriage that their ceremony wouldn't allow any wiggle room for divorce, and hence the swearing.
 
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HannahT

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But ChristianGolfer said something along the lines of her and her husband being married as long as they were both pleased to be married. That would seem to me to imply that if either of them got tired of it, they felt free to divorce.

I don't remember that being said at all.

My husband and I agree on this point. We both believe it's a sign of deeper commitment because we're choosing to be together even though no law, rule or commandment is forcing us to stay together. We want to stay married. We aren't doing it unwillingly or out of compulsion.

They stay together due to a deep commitment to each other.

God would wish us to stay together with the right heart. It's a similar principal to Jesus's story with the tithe. A poor woman gave all she had with the right heart compared to those that didn't .... as they jingle their change to make sure everyone hears it. I mean if tithing is a command - they both did their part. Even though I'm sure the jinglers gave more her attitude of being willing, wanting, and doing so with the mindset, heart, etc? It meant more.

Just because they see or approach this issue differently - doesn't mean they don't respect what the bible has to say, live by its way - or however you wish to word it. You seem to miss that completely.
 
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LinkH

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Well apparently you aren't really in a committed marriage unless your trapped in it.Trapped by choice.

What is the difference between 'committed' and 'trapped by choice' in your opinion?


So all those marrieds that stay married til death with divorce as an option were um...not committed.They weren't in it for the long haul.


How many people do you know that made it till death whose attitude was that they would both stay together as long as it both made them happy?
 
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LinkH

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I don't remember that being said at all.

You can look back over the threads for the post in question if you wish.

God would wish us to stay together with the right heart. It's a similar principal to Jesus's story with the tithe. A poor woman gave all she had with the right heart compared to those that didn't .... as they jingle their change to make sure everyone hears it. I mean if tithing is a command - they both did their part. Even though I'm sure the jinglers gave more her attitude of being willing, wanting, and doing so with the mindset, heart, etc? It meant more.

I don't see how the analogy fits. The woman didn't give with an attitude that she would sin if doing what God wanted didn't feel right.

Besides, I don't see what this has to do with the tithe law. I suppose you could say it was the temple tax, but they were giving money, not grain and animals. If she didn't own land, she may not have been required to pay tithe. I think the situation was giving voluntary offerings.

Just because they see or approach this issue differently - doesn't mean they don't respect what the bible has to say, live by its way - or however you wish to word it. You seem to miss that completely.

If the Lord Jesus said if a man divorces his wife, except it be for fornication, and marries another, he commits adultery, and he that marries her that is divorced commits adultery....

And if the Lord also commanded through Paul for the wife not to depart from her husband and for the husband not to put away His wife...

Then don't you see a problem with someone deciding to obey Jesus as long as doing so pleases him or her?

What if we were talking about committing adultery. Suppose someone came on here and posted that she wasn't going to commit adultery as long as she and her husband thought it was a good idea not to commit adultery. Or what if a man said he wouldn't look at porn as long as his wife met his needs, or as long as he and his wife both agreed that he wouldn't look at porn?

I think those are better analogies.
 
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TravelerFarAwayFromHome

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You can look back over the threads for the post in question if you wish.



I don't see how the analogy fits. The woman didn't give with an attitude that she would sin if doing what God wanted didn't feel right.

Besides, I don't see what this has to do with the tithe law. I suppose you could say it was the temple tax, but they were giving money, not grain and animals. If she didn't own land, she may not have been required to pay tithe. I think the situation was giving voluntary offerings.



If the Lord Jesus said if a man divorces his wife, except it be for fornication, and marries another, he commits adultery, and he that marries her that is divorced commits adultery....

And if the Lord also commanded through Paul for the wife not to depart from her husband and for the husband not to put away His wife...

Then don't you see a problem with someone deciding to obey Jesus as long as doing so pleases him or her?

What if we were talking about committing adultery. Suppose someone came on here and posted that she wasn't going to commit adultery as long as she and her husband thought it was a good idea not to commit adultery. Or what if a man said he wouldn't look at porn as long as his wife met his needs, or as long as he and his wife both agreed that he wouldn't look at porn?

I think those are better analogies.

I am sick and tired watching all of the cat fights on this particular sub forum

how very unsightly!

I remember a long long time ago I was at this seminar, where one of the participants asked the pastor who was conducting it on what one should do if you see your fellow Christians get into fist cuffs at church

His response " let them finished it off, like bunch of children, once they get a nose bleed, they will stop!"

How wise were his words.

people need to grow up in this sub forum and stop acting like children.

i am out of here!
 
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GoodSpeed

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You can look back over the threads for the post in question if you wish.



I don't see how the analogy fits. The woman didn't give with an attitude that she would sin if doing what God wanted didn't feel right.

Besides, I don't see what this has to do with the tithe law. I suppose you could say it was the temple tax, but they were giving money, not grain and animals. If she didn't own land, she may not have been required to pay tithe. I think the situation was giving voluntary offerings.



If the Lord Jesus said if a man divorces his wife, except it be for fornication, and marries another, he commits adultery, and he that marries her that is divorced commits adultery....

And if the Lord also commanded through Paul for the wife not to depart from her husband and for the husband not to put away His wife...

Then don't you see a problem with someone deciding to obey Jesus as long as doing so pleases him or her?

What if we were talking about committing adultery. Suppose someone came on here and posted that she wasn't going to commit adultery as long as she and her husband thought it was a good idea not to commit adultery. Or what if a man said he wouldn't look at porn as long as his wife met his needs, or as long as he and his wife both agreed that he wouldn't look at porn?

I think those are better analogies.
Link -- to a reasonable person everything you have said makes sense. But there are those that want to live however they please and still say that it thier actions are consistent with what Jesus has taught -- they don't want to feel remorse or shame. These type of people desire their own set of rules and a God (made in their image) rather than the other way around.

lol -- Your efforts are applauded - don't get frustrated - Pearls before Swine.
 
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