What would you lose if Christianity were not true?

BigV · Oct 25, 2019

Halbhh said:
The immediate gains here and now in this temporary life that non-believers can recognize as valuable which come from doing as Christ commanded his followers to do include prominently gaining a lot more love/enjoyment in your life and soon also less stress.

Originally when I as a non believer read things Christ said, I was thinking about personal gains, for here and now. I wanted the best life here and now.

I was going to add Christ to Emerson, Lao Tzu, Carl Rogers, and a host of other thinkers/philosophers I had read.

For personal gain -- to simply get the best life, here and now.

His way to live is a lot better than the other ways, many of which were quite good themselves.

Actually, I would like you to expand on your answer, if you don't mind. What do you mean by ... a lot more love/enjoyment in your life and less stress? Give me an example if you don't mind.

Also, I'm of the opinion that Christ's teachings are really nonsensical in many ways, so nobody follows them even among the most devout.

For example, check out Luke 12:33, Luke 14:33.

Give to everyone who asks of you? That teaching would bankrupt any serious Jesus follower.

BigV · Oct 25, 2019

Tinker Grey said:
I assumed a typo. One doesn't "indulge" in immortality.

But in the context of answering the OP, I suppose you must be right.

Hm... now I'm not sure myself

I thought @BNR32FAN meant that if this life is all there is, they would lose the chance to indulge into immortality, i.e lose the eternal life concept. But they were also fine with it too.

mama2one · Oct 25, 2019

Kenny'sID · Oct 25, 2019

BigV said:
If this life is all there is, and you followed a Christian lifestyle, what would be your loss if this life is the only existence we have?

If this life were all there is, we never would have heard of God as we know him and there would be no loss because there was never any major expectations to begin with. So when you say "Christian lifestyle" what lifestyle do you mean? It's certainly not the lifestyle we live in order to get to heaven and have everlasting life.

The question doesn't work when you remove part of Christianity. Was it that important to you we didn't answer "heaven/everlasting life" that you had to style the question in such a way as to avoid it?

Kenny'sID · Oct 25, 2019

*LILAC said:
If Christianity weren't true, you would lose your soul.

Except the way the OP worded it, a soul wouldn't matter, and as you alluded that is a very important part of actual Christianity.

Halbhh · Oct 25, 2019

BigV said:
Actually, I would like you to expand on your answer, if you don't mind. What do you mean by ... a lot more love/enjoyment in your life and less stress? Give me an example if you don't mind.

Also, I'm of the opinion that Christ's teachings are really nonsensical in many ways, so nobody follows them even among the most devout.

For example, check out Luke 12:33, Luke 14:33.

Give to everyone who asks of you? That teaching would bankrupt any serious Jesus follower.

While the ASV this site uses is less clear often, someone like you could refer to the NLT or NIV best, if you have an interest sometime. But do you? You appear to be saying you already get what Christ is saying enough to dismiss what He says? I'm not too convinced about that. I remember the other day you got caught up on a question of hand washing, which wasn't even slightly close to the real meaning in that passage. So, you ought to doubt some of your own understanding, if you can take a friendly advice on that. Guess instead that it has meaning you haven't gotten yet. Make sense?

How would a person realizing that proceed? By reading through more carefully, and never isolated verses, but entire chapters, so as to better get a sense of the meaning. For one thing you should notice that the instruction in Luke chapter 12 is only for believers that are His followers, actually learning and doing as He said to do. It would make a lot less sense for a non believer. How do we know? Because clearly in Luke chapter 12 He is speaking about laying up treasures in the life to come, after this one. How could that apply to a non-believer? Well, it would not.

On the other hand, the classic ideas like Mark 12:31 ... 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' could clearly be used by anyone, tested by anyone, even without believing in anything else yet, but only that He might be giving good advice, and it's easy to figure out how to test it out.

klutedavid · Oct 25, 2019

BigV said:
If this life is all there is, and you followed a Christian lifestyle, what would be your loss if this life is the only existence we have?

Just to elaborate, I know Christians who claim they would lose nothing, but I think it's a contradiction, because same Christians claim they have given ALL to Christ also, like the hymn says... "I surrender all.."

If heaven never existed and Christians just die and no longer exist. Then those Christians would never actually know that heaven never existed.

We cannot measure the success or failure of anyone's lifetime after death, because after death you do not exist.

If a person rejects Christianity and makes a billion dollars in business, a successful person, that success is temporal because they then die.

In fact, death itself limits the very definition of the way we understand what success and failure means. That is why so few people ever contemplate death, because death destroys the dreams and ambition of life.

Death is the mortal blow to all of life's pursuits.

In the end, without an afterlife it really makes no difference to how anyone lives this life, because death overrides all these things.

Since we die the debate itself is meaningless.

2PhiloVoid · Oct 25, 2019

BigV said:
I thought Solomon had a harem already? Most if not all "Saints" of the Old Testament had multiple women. So, is gambling something you are after? Gambling is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible. It's similar to drugs. Not explicitly forbidden but interpreted as forbidden.

Don't act like you didn't see the rest of my previous post, BigV. All of what I've said there goes beyond 'Vegas.' So, this has little to do with gambling as much as it does with unmitigated Materialism, Liberal Sexual Mores, Idolatry and the inordinate seeking after Political Power over one's neighbor. Solomon WAS NOT commended in the Bible for these things, but yet someone, EVERYONE these days seems to talk as if he were some 'hero' of the Bible. If anything, he caused a lot of problems for Israel and the best we might cull out of the books supposedly associated with him is that after all of the sin and profligacy, he perhaps woke up at the end of life and began to see that all of the king's wisdom and all of the king's women couldn't put Humpty-Hump back together again.

From what I see here, you haven't yet begun to 'chaw' on it. Do you want evidence of the truth of the Bible in the WORLD? Open your eyes for once!

2PhiloVoid · Oct 25, 2019

Halbhh said:
The "What if Christianity isn't real?" and "Do you believe in Santa?" are favorite talking points, and up pretty high on the list it appears in the last many years. We are up near the top in these 2, like maybe Favorite Talking Point/Question #6, as a follow up to Favorite Question Talking Point/Question #4.

Hey, at least here we are not down at like Favorite Talking Point #26, as happens in some threads, where it's answer one, and another gets presented instead, ad infinitum. (Of course that may happen anyway, lol)

It seems we are doomed to answer the same 20 or 30 questions over and over, and any good answer will merely make that question disappear temporarily, for a day or a few days. But if you get through all 30 (which could be done in just a few days on the internet I think), then you'll surely be able to get back to some old favs. Again. Sooner than you'd think.

There should also be another list: those topics that Atheists like to ignore or combat the most.

Pavel Mosko · Oct 25, 2019

BigV said:
If this life is all there is, and you followed a Christian lifestyle, what would be your loss if this life is the only existence we have?

Just to elaborate, I know Christians who claim they would lose nothing, but I think it's a contradiction, because same Christians claim they have given ALL to Christ also, like the hymn says... "I surrender all.."

Even if there wasn't any afterlife I still get ahead with Christianity, when it comes to life philosophy
Things especially relating to Stoic and Existential truths, life lessons etc. I'm talking about stuff like the You-tube video

10 Stoic Teachings Of Marcus Aurelius We Desperately Need Today (Practical Stoicism)

cloudyday2 · Oct 25, 2019

BigV said:
If this life is all there is, and you followed a Christian lifestyle, what would be your loss if this life is the only existence we have?

Just to elaborate, I know Christians who claim they would lose nothing, but I think it's a contradiction, because same Christians claim they have given ALL to Christ also, like the hymn says... "I surrender all.."

I have noticed that many Christians are misunderstanding your question. They are comparing a world where Christianity is true against a world where Christianity if false, but you are asking them to compare two worlds where Christianity is false and the only difference is belief or disbelief in the falsehood.

This is a difficult question. Imagine if you were asking about belief in Athena. The Parthenon cost Athens a lot, but it was a beautiful temple even though the goddess Athena didn't exist to appreciate it.

I think my life would have been much better if I had been raised as an atheist. Christianity has caused me a lot of stress and worry and has given back very little. Somebody like Joel Osteen would answer differently.

BigV · Oct 25, 2019

Halbhh said:
I remember the other day you got caught up on a question of hand washing, which wasn't even slightly close to the real meaning in that passage. So, you ought to doubt some of your own understanding, if you can take a friendly advice on that. Guess instead that it has meaning you haven't gotten yet. Make sense?

the point about hand washing stands. You are the one bent on not seeing that Jesus was clearly wrong there. His disciples ate with unwashed hands and Jesus condones the practice instead of telling those people that washing hands often is a very good idea. I bet you wash your hands before eating, cause you know better.

especially considering Jesus ate laying down presumably on the floor.

Halbhh said:
For one thing you should notice that the instruction in Luke chapter 12 is only for believers that are His followers, actually learning and doing as He said to do. It would make a lot less sense for a non believer. How do we know? Because clearly in Luke chapter 12 He is speaking about laying up treasures in the life to come, after this one. How could that apply to a non-believer? Well, it would not.

point is, no sane Christian follows the teachings on giving up own wealth and giving to everyone who asks.

Halbhh said:
On the other hand, the classic ideas like Mark 12:31 ... 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' could clearly be used by anyone, tested by anyone, even without believing in anything else yet, but only that He might be giving good advice, and it's easy to figure out how to test it out.

This idea of loving others as your self is meaningless. You will always take care of your self and family before taking care of neighbors and their kids. Let’s be real here. Jesus’ teachings are worthless.

cvanwey · Oct 25, 2019

BigV said:
the point about hand washing stands. You are the one bent on not seeing that Jesus was clearly wrong there. His disciples ate with unwashed hands and Jesus condones the practice instead of telling those people that washing hands often is a very good idea. I bet you wash your hands before eating, cause you know better.

especially considering Jesus ate laying down presumably on the floor.

point is, no sane Christian follows the teachings on giving up own wealth and giving to everyone who asks.

This idea of loving others as your self is meaningless. You will always take care of your self and family before taking care of neighbors and their kids. Let’s be real here. Jesus’ teachings are worthless.

This is exactly what I tried to convey to him prior, in another thread. Jesus seems to offer nothing, which was not already discovered by other humans. His response was that truth is universal, and that it could be mentioned a million times prior and since....

But we then have to ask ourselves.... Did Jesus really teach us anything, or instead only re-enforce already identified circulating knowledge?

Heck, we have Einstein, Newton, Pasteur, etc.. Yes, these truths were already around, just not yet discovers, but, Jesus had many opportunities to provide UNKNOWN knowledge, and apparently chose NOT too?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?

Heck, when one attempts to argue the veracity of Jesus, they will often turn to prophecy and miracles performed. Such topics which are easily debatable, easily contestable, and even unfalsifiable mind you - as prophecy is vague, and miracles - told from anecdotal standpoints, are not falsifiable.

HOWEVER, had Jesus introduced concepts, not yet known by any society, us skeptics would have a much harder time disputing HOW HE already knew of such information, without some added 'force' beyond the current knowledge of humans.

Silmarien · Oct 25, 2019

BigV said:
If this life is all there is, and you followed a Christian lifestyle, what would be your loss if this life is the only existence we have?

Just to elaborate, I know Christians who claim they would lose nothing, but I think it's a contradiction, because same Christians claim they have given ALL to Christ also, like the hymn says... "I surrender all.."

It's a paradox, not a contradiction. You have to give everything up, but in doing so, you get everything back in a transformed state.

I'm not really missing out on anything by trying to follow a Christian lifestyle. There are aspects of it that are difficult, but hopefully I will get better at them in time.

BigV said:
point is, no sane Christian follows the teachings on giving up own wealth and giving to everyone who asks.

Uh... not to be a scary leftist, but those are some of the teachings that I am most conscious of. They're also the really tricky ones, since Mammon still definitely rules this world.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 25, 2019

dzheremi said:
Pointing out that any argument for atheism that looks an awful lot like Evangelical Protestant 'getting saved' experiences is no more convincing to Christians who are not of that mindset already than those Evangelical experiences generally are to atheists.

A good answer, in another situation. In this case, however, the question is "What would you lose if you decided God does not exist," and we are exploring the corollary, what might you gain. And this deconversion story clearly shows that you might gain something. This isn't the place to argue whether or not you would gain it.

dzheremi said:
Well yeah, but the point is that this isn't a very well-formed question to begin with. It pretty much guarantees that the answer is going to be "Nothing" if you think about it for more than two seconds, unless the 'point' of Christianity is somehow disconnected from it being true, and its rewards found mainly in everything else you have connected to it (e.g., your sense of self, your familial or other social connections, etc).

Do be careful how you talk about other people! Because I dare say Sanoy and Philo put some thought into their answers. They don't seem to think that they would "lose nothing".

Sanoy said:
Short answer. Everything.
Long answer. Christianity provides a bottom and a top, a ground and sky perspective from which one can orient and navigate life. Losing it is like leaving the earth for space, where there is no top, no bottom, no orientation, no where to go, just a constant floating. Everyone has a compass there, but it leads nowhere, because it was born from nothing.

and

2PhiloVoid said:
I would lose a lot, Big V. I would lose the potential for living forever, which was the first reason that I even decided to "check out" Christianity in the first place at age 17.
I would then lose my most important 'value' in having aesthetically experienced Jesus in my mind and heart as the most Beautiful entity I've ever encountered conceptually.
I would also lose being with my wife forever and with my son and with whoever else I've come to treasure as a fellow Christian. I would also lose the potential to not only meet Christ in person, but also the many folks who will be in eternity whom I've never yet met.
And if I could know-----in this life----that Christianity isn't true, then I'd lose myself to becoming fully enmeshed in all of those social and psychological dysfunctions that surely many, many people are now saturating themselves within in order to assuage their existential angst emanating from their lonely, unsuccessful lives. So, yeah, I'd lose a lot.

And I dare say plenty of other Christians would agree!
I'd even agree myself. If you decide God doesn't exist, you could lose plenty. Friends. A social circle. A sense of purpose in life. Career advantages. Something to do on a Sunday morning. Motivation. You could lose plenty by stopping being a Christian, and many deconversion stories do explain that it was a wrench indeed.
But the thing to consider is is: would you rather know the truth, or not? If this hypothesis was correct, if God was not real - would you want to know?

InterestedAtheist · Oct 25, 2019

drich0150 said:
So riddle me this: 100 X 0=?
If you surrender to nothing what have you lost?
If you surrender 100% to God He promises to give it back 10x what you put in!
I have lived my life this way.

But what if He doesn't exist?
Does all the richness you received in life really matter if it turns out there actually is no God after all, and it was all...just your imagination?
I dare say you might feel a bit silly, and perhaps relieved, and perhaps sad. Most people who deconvert report strong emotions.

drich0150 said:
What did you sell your faith for? sleep around with a few girls/boys? smoke pot eat too much pizza? seriously what is their to gain? What if you can be happy in the service of others in the name of God?

To paraphrase Dan Barker, former preacher and current atheist:
"I didn't lose my faith. I outgrew it."
So I suppose the answer to "What did you sell your faith for?" is "intellectual integrity."

InterestedAtheist · Oct 25, 2019

rockytopva said:
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. - 2 Timothy 1:12

Quoting from the Bible is only useful to other people who believe it. So what you're saying amounts to "I know that God is real because the book that says he is real assures me that it's telling the truth."

InterestedAtheist · Oct 25, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
I'm not sure why you keep pressing this hypothetical. It's kind of lame and kind of tiresome. No, I take that back! It's trite and supremely tedious.

Ah. The old "I could win this argument, but really it's so boring I can't be bothered," approach.

2PhiloVoid said:
Besides, in relation to what you're dredging up here from the bottom of Lack Nihil, let's not kid ourselves here, BigV. If there's no Jesus, then not only do we get to be free from religious delusion, but it's...............Las Vegas, Nevada, here we COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME, Baby!

If Christians have such an amoral approach to life, then I suppose we should be grateful that Christianity keeps them on the straight and narrow.
And yet, honestly, Philo, I don't believe you. Because plenty of people have deconverted and kept a sense of morality, or even found a greater one.
As Penn Jillette put it:
"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don't want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don't want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you. You know what I mean?"

Halbhh said:
The "What if Christianity isn't real?" and "Do you believe in Santa?" are favorite talking points, and up pretty high on the list it appears in the last many years. We are up near the top in these 2, like maybe Favorite Talking Point/Question #6, as a follow up to Favorite Question Talking Point/Question #4...It seems we are doomed to answer the same 20 or 30 questions over and over, and any good answer will merely make that question disappear temporarily, for a day or a few days. But if you get through all 30 (which could be done in just a few days on the internet I think), then you'll surely be able to get back to some old favs. Again.

Sooner than you'd think.

Hmmm.
Well, first, there are plenty of people who haven't yet heard these arguments, so if you have and you're bored with them, why don't you skip them?
Second: please, please, please give us the "good answer" that will magically win the argument for you. I would love to see it!

2PhiloVoid said:
From what I see here, you haven't yet begun to 'chaw' on it. Do you want evidence of the truth of the Bible in the WORLD? Open your eyes for once!

YES! Please provide this evidence!

2PhiloVoid said:
There should also be another list: those topics that Atheists like to ignore or combat the most.

I would love to see it.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 25, 2019

klutedavid said:
If heaven never existed and Christians just die and no longer exist. Then those Christians would never actually know that heaven never existed.
We cannot measure the success or failure of anyone's lifetime after death, because after death you do not exist.

and

Kenny'sID said:
If this life were all there is, we never would have heard of God as we know him and there would be no loss because there was never any major expectations to begin with. So when you say "Christian lifestyle" what lifestyle do you mean? It's certainly not the lifestyle we live in order to get to heaven and have everlasting life.
The question doesn't work when you remove part of Christianity. Was it that important to you we didn't answer "heaven/everlasting life" that you had to style the question in such a way as to avoid it?

I think you haven't understood the question properly.
Imagine, quite simply, that you suddenly found out (through some unspecified means that aren't important because this is a hypothetical question) that God was not real.
Would you have lost anything?

2PhiloVoid · Oct 25, 2019

InterestedAtheist said:
And I dare say plenty of other Christians would agree!
I'd even agree myself. If you decide God doesn't exist, you could lose plenty. Friends. A social circle. A sense of purpose in life. Career advantages. Something to do on a Sunday morning. Motivation. You could lose plenty by stopping being a Christian, and many deconversion stories do explain that it was a wrench indeed.
But the thing to consider is is: would you rather know the truth, or not? If this hypothesis was correct, if God was not real - would you want to know?

Yes, I would. Being able to better understand how human beings might best conceptualize, define, and maybe even measure Truth and Reality was one of the reasons I so wanted to get a degree in Philosophy.

I would always rather know the truth; I would also always want to retain the truth over and against what some group or community might press me to believe, even if they end up counting as a majority of the population. So, yes, I can honestly say that IF we could know whether God is real or not, I'd definitely want to know.

What would you lose if Christianity were not true?

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