What would Jesus tell you if you met him?

twistedsketch said:

Then they would cease to be miracles. Part of what defines a miracle is supernatural activity interfering with the natural world. Science only touches the natural.

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There is no such thing as "supernatural activity" in my opinion. Unless you can prove that there is such a thing, I don't see the point of your reply.

twistedsketch said:

Why don't you just present such a case? If I were an atheist and you said that to me, I would pick one that hadn't been confirmed by science.

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That's what I'm waiting for cause those cases should be discussed too.

Ishida said:

There is historical evidence for the bible too. You know, the Jew's exile to Babylonia, The prophecies about Cyrus.
There were Pharisees. There is much historical evidence for the bible. Oh wait, it's "religious" so nothing it says can be true.

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I know that there's historical evidence for the Bible. I just don't see how that fact makes the Bible any more true than a historical fiction book.

MoNiCa4316 said:

That's what I'm waiting for cause those cases should be discussed too.

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To quote TwistedSketch: "Why don't you just present such a case?" Stop asking us to provide an example and provide one yourself.

SoAmazinglyBlessed said:

Yes, I know that you gave me an answer, but I was just using All Quiet to prove a point about the answer that you gave me, which was that you could say that same thing about any historical fiction book (not just the Bible), and it would still be true. So I'm just wondering what makes the Bible different than a historical fiction book.

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Oki, fair enough
Well I'd say that for historical fiction books; there's evidence that the people or places in them really existed, but there's no evidence that the events are real....that's what makes them fictional, of course. But the Bible claims that the events described in it actually happened. Did they? Well there are secular records that in first century AD, Jesus was already worshipped as a 'deity'. This means that this is indeed what the Apostles taught, and it wasnt just made up later on. Were the Apostles right?

It really all comes down to the Resurrection.... well look it this way: imagine you are Apostle Peter or someone you're just a fisherman all your life, but then this man comes along and tells you to follow him..and says that he's the Son of God. Would you believe him, just like that? I wouldn't! Not unless he provided some evidence..well that's indeed what Jesus did. He walked on water and healed the sick to show people that He has authority, that He is who He claims to be. So you start following this Man... then, He is captured by the authorities and killed, just like Scripture predicts. He tells you that this is not the end...

Now imagine that he lied about everything and it's indeed the end. He dies and you never see him again. Would you then..leave your friends, family, country, home, possessions...to go to foreign lands in poverty and persecution, to tell people about this man? To tell them that he can save them from death and sin? No, right? Because you know he lied! However, the Apostles did just that. What does that tell you? Would you die for something you know is a lie? They did not get any money for this...they were persecuted, put into prison, hated by their own people..

Well to me, all this means that the Apostles had good reasons for believing this man Jesus. To me, it means that He really did rise from the dead, and showed His disciples that He's for real. Then, they were willing to die for Him. I've heard some people say that they were simply crazy, and were willing to die for anything...but that is not true...if you read the Bible, they sound like very sane people, and they are even pretty skeptical at times! Look at Thomas. And Peter, he denied Christ three times because of his fear of being persecuted. So this argument doesn't really stand.

I don't expect that my post has convinced you about Christianity...but what do you think? Do you have any big problems or objections with this argument?

The other thing I would say is ..the Bible has changed millions of lives. People don't just blindly believe it is true...they experience it to be true. I have. This is not true for any book in the world..fictional or not.

peace

monica

SoAmazinglyBlessed said:

So you're asking me to provide you with an example of the claim that you just made? How am I supposed to know which miracles have been able to be proven by science?

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No, I asked you to present a miracle that hasn't been proven by science..simply for discussion. If you want to. You don't have to or anything

SoAmazinglyBlessed said:

There is no such thing as "supernatural activity" in my opinion. Unless you can prove that there is such a thing, I don't see the point of your reply.

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Well, that's just something you'll have to encounter, because no amount of blathering I or anyone else will do online will convince you. This is a key reason why I'm not an atheist, by the way. Atheists deny a whole dimension of existence and becoming one would force me to deny an entire aspect of my being, which is the spiritual.

SoAmazinglyBlessed said:

To quote TwistedSketch: "Why don't you just present such a case?" Stop asking us to provide an example and provide one yourself.

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Oki, I will. I'm not an encyclopedia so I'll have to look things up first. but I'll be back and I'll give you something. However, if you have already decided that miracles are impossible I don't think it would be really convincing...we never objectively evaluate evidence...we're always biased. That's why I said it would be better to look at cases that haven't been proven by science. When I was an agnostic no amount of evidence could convince me, until I changed the way I look at it...I don't know how it's like in your case though. I'll try to find something.

peace

monica

twistedsketch said:

Well, that's just something you'll have to encounter, because no amount of blathering I or anyone else will do online will convince you. This is a key reason why I'm not an atheist, by the way. Atheists deny a whole dimension of existence and becoming one would force me to deny an entire aspect of my being, which is the spiritual.

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yea..Christianity is something that's meant to be experienced.."we believe in what we do not see, and our reward is to see and enjoy what we believe" (Augustine).

You also have to consider that there are more historical sources for Jesus of Nazerath then there are for a lot of accepted hisorical figures like Alexander.

Don't buy into atheistic lies about Christianity. Trust me I used to belive in those lies, I was raised in an agnostic household, my parents never did and still don't go to church. I was an atheist for a long time. When I really felt the spirit speaking to me, I began investigating on my own. Reading theology, reading the bible. And I can tell you that most of what atheists tell you about the bible and about Christians is not true in the least.

Oh dear, he would probably ask me, what are you doing at the bar? Why aren't you home reading the Bible? Do you know where your children are? Then I am sure he has a sense of humor, he did once live as a human, so he would probably laugh and by me a Twisted Tea, tell me to relax, and that he loves me even though i am not perfect! I like my answer.lol.

SoAmazinglyBlessed said:

No, I have not read it, but I know that it contains such impossibilities as a man walking on water and a snake talking to a woman, so I can assure you that I do not believe in it, even without having read it.

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and you say you used to be a christian. obviously your god cannot do those things because you are your god.

SoAmazinglyBlessed said:

There's historical evidence for the events in All Quiet on the Western Front, too. So my point still stands.

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so it wouldn't be fictional then.

SoAmazinglyBlessed said:

I know that there's historical evidence for the Bible. I just don't see how that fact makes the Bible any more true than a historical fiction book.

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for the reason you just stated. you said it's a fact that there is historical evidence, which would make it nonfiction actually.

... I think he would probably be angry with me...

Arianna said:

... I think he would probably be angry with me...

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aw why do you think that? You know Jesus loves us unconditionally

MoNiCa4316 said:

aw why do you think that? You know Jesus loves us unconditionally

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Yes...and? You think that God can't love someone and be angry at them and what they've done?

WarEagle said:

Yes...and? You think that God can't love someone and be angry at them and what they've done?

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If the person is turning to Him for forgiveness, He forgives, and isn't angry at them.

MoNiCa4316 said:

If the person is turning to Him for forgiveness, He forgives, and isn't angry at them.

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On what grounds do you believe the Bible is wrong when it says that God is angry at sinners?

WarEagle said:

On what grounds do you believe the Bible is wrong when it says that God is angry at sinners?

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I don't think that His anger is at all like our anger.

Anyway, He died for sinners while they were still sinners.