What would it take to trust Christ?

Salubri · Apr 14, 2005

It's not that I don;t like Jesus...I beieve in him (and MANY other things) in my own weird way.....I just Do not like his "Fan Club" or their book.

I don't think Jesus wanted to be "worshiped" as such. I think all he wanted to do was teach love and enlightenment in a very Ghandi/Buddha/Mother Teresa etc. type way and have everyone get along. But some self-proclaimed "Christians" just twist it all and pervet the message for their own ends.

HouseApe · Apr 14, 2005

Angel4Truth said:
What would it take to trust Christ for all of you who are not believers?

Probably the same thing as it would take for you to trust Muhammed. What is holding you back from becoming a Muslim?

There are over a billion muslims. And many can give you personal testimony as to how Allah has affected their lives. Why can't you trust them?

Phred · Apr 14, 2005

Angel4Truth said:
There were over 500 witnesses that Christ was resurected but not any living today , so it really depends on whether or not you believe History and the other things in the bible that point to God and the conscience that points to God .

No... this is what you believe, not what history tells us. There are over 500 people who have personally met James Bond. Many of those have fought or loved him. We know this because we can read in books that these people existed. The same amount of proof exists for the existence of James Bond as Jesus.

Now, you'll dismiss this as irrelevant to your contention. But you aren't looking at the Bible critically. There is no verifiable evidence whatsoever that any of the people in the Bible myth ever actually existed. Zip, nada, nothing. There is no verifiable evidence that Jesus or God exist or ever existed. In fact, you call him by a name that, had he lived, he would never have heard. "Jesus" is Greek. Yet, you claim to have a personal relationship with someone you don't even know the name of... Many Christians think of their deity as "Jehovah" even though "Jehovah" is a typo. It's a combination of the name of the Christian god, YWHW, with the word "adonai."

There will be no excuse before God that each person didnt have opportunity to know the truth .

And so the self-righteous threats begin. "Believe as I do or you'll suffer the consequences."

As far as providing evidence myself , thats not my place to do , its the place of each person to seek the truth.

If you claim something and expect others to believe you then it is your place to present evidence. If you cannot, don't blame others for not believing you.

I can offer witness based on my own experience with Christ that what He says is true and that i have a personal relationship with Him , however i cannot make you experience that relationship, Ican only testify to it .

Not exactly. You can testify to what you believe to be a relationship with your deity. Your experience with your diety is based upon your desires and your culture. Don't you find it funny that Muslims don't pop up everyday after experiencing Jesus? People don't come out of the rainforests, having never heard of civilization, claiming a relationship with Jesus. Yet you insist that your interpretation of an event is worthy of critical consideration as evidence.

So you have the testimony of countless believers and the bible itself and can also experience the truth of God if you desire so in your heart , but only when one is sincerely seeking . The consience testifies to the truth . I cannot and will not speak for other people and what they have done or havent done .

I would desire the truth of a god... If I could find a reason to think that anyone has. If there is a deity who knows all there is to know, why won't he teach us? No... all I see is people who have a stake in the game. You yourself are so blatant in your desire to win converts I don't see how you can deny it. Why? I don't know... nor do I really care. That's between you and your deity.

Mostly this was designed for each person to examine themselves as to what it would it take .

But you don't bother to examine yourself and wonder why it takes so little?

.

Angel4Truth · Apr 15, 2005

HouseApe said:
Probably the same thing as it would take for you to trust Muhammed. What is holding you back from becoming a Muslim?

The fact that there are no correct prophecies in the Quran, that muhammed changes the hebrew scriptures and christian ones that were here long before and borrowing can clearly be shown . The fact that muhammed himself questioned his own sanity and often behaved as if he were demon possessed . I could go on and on but do not wish to offend , if someone wants to speak to me directly about islam and what ive studied , I feel this issue is better treated one on one , I never seek to offend anyone and try to choose my words carefully because my first priority is giving the truth of the Gospel as God would lead me .

There are over a billion muslims. And many can give you personal testimony as to how Allah has affected their lives. Why can't you trust them?

No , there are over a billion people who 'claim' to be muslims because in most muslim countries , it is a forced religion and one cannot choose anything else openly . The fact that it has to be forced in order to be followed and choosing it deliberately is rare in comparison to its numbers also
no muslim can tell me how allah affects their lives because islam teaches that allah cannot be known and that he saves who he wills and no one knows who that will be and no one can be asured of their place in 'paradise' unless committing jihad or dying as martyr of the faith.

I have checked out its claims and found them wanting by more than just a little , its not an option for me . I fully believe in studying other religions and I dont just jump to conclusions or just pick any biased web page or book and think that is my entire authority on the subject .

I carefully weigh both sides in light of both religious and secular history and I find muhammed to be merely a man who wanted glory for himself and who was extremely angered by the jews who refused to accept him as their messiah and he turned that hatred inward and the quoran was born out of that hatred for them . This is my opinion that ive come to by studying both the quoran and him 9muhammed) and I could write volumes on how ive come to my opinion on this topic from what ive studied on it .

I dont believe that anyone should take the step of commiting themselves to God lightly , and I also dont believe that God wants us to have blind faith but faith that is grounded in truth. Real truth means complete trust and no one can completely trust anything if they cannot get their head around it.

However there is still the issue of us being open and WILLING to seek Him in our hearts , but once you have enough to know that there is in fact a God and that He wants to be known by you and wants relationship with you because youll be moved by the spirit - you can then extend the measure of faith that He gave to each of us and then youll be filled and sealed with His Spirit becoming a new creation in Christ.

morningstar2651 · Apr 15, 2005

I believe in Jesus and I believe in Jehova - but I'm not Christian, Islamic, or Jewish.

That one probably throws a few people for a loop.

Angel4Truth · Apr 15, 2005

Phred said:
No... this is what you believe, not what history tells us. There are over 500 people who have personally met James Bond. Many of those have fought or loved him. We know this because we can read in books that these people existed. The same amount of proof exists for the existence of James Bond as Jesus.

No , we dont read in books that a real james bond existed , we read a fictional one exists because the author was clear that it was a work of fiction . This is not even a comparison . By your statement no one in history ever existed because all you have to know people existed outside of your lifetime is word of mouth or books to read it in if it is anyone who lived outside the time frame of photographs but hey since you are fantasising , photos can be faked too . The fact that there were enough people alive when acts was written who could have disputed the witness of the 500 and didnt do so , speaks volumes to me . You have the right to believe anything you wish or reject anything you wish . We all have free will .

Now, you'll dismiss this as irrelevant to your contention. But you aren't looking at the Bible critically. There is no verifiable evidence whatsoever that any of the people in the Bible myth ever actually existed There is no verifiable evidence that Jesus or God exist or ever existed. .Zip, nada, nothing.

Historians outside the bible , church fathers etc.. are verifiable evidence to me . Archeology and even yes secular history are verifiable evidences to me and they verify several of the people in fact existed . For example without the bible , we would have had no knowledge of the hittites who skeptics used to claim was evidence that the bible was a myth , now we have more than 10,000 artifacts that testify to their existance and also the list of kings agrees with the biblical account completely after being researched and there is ample evidence of solomon and king david .

My personal relationship with the one you claim doesnt exist is verifiable evidence to me . I have verified it all that I need.

And so the self-righteous threats begin. "Believe as I do or you'll suffer the consequences.

If you claim something and expect others to believe you then it is your place to present evidence. If you cannot, don't blame others for not believing you.

No threat here , I dont make the rules , and it doesnt phase me one bit if you believe me or not , its God you need to be worried about not me , but thanks for your confidence that I have that much power .

Not exactly. You can testify to what you believe to be a relationship with your deity. Your experience with your diety is based upon your desires and your culture. Don't you find it funny that Muslims don't pop up everyday after experiencing Jesus? People don't come out of the rainforests, having never heard of civilization, claiming a relationship with Jesus. Yet you insist that your interpretation of an event is worthy of critical consideration as evidence.

Actually if you have ever spent any time talking to foriegn missionaries you would realize how silly this statement was because indeed God has and does speak to others in other nations who had not been missioned to yet. I would carefully research what you say before you make assumptions with no basis other than your desires .

I would desire the truth of a god... If I could find a reason to think that anyone has. If there is a deity who knows all there is to know, why won't he teach us? No... all I see is people who have a stake in the game. You yourself are so blatant in your desire to win converts I don't see how you can deny it. Why? I don't know... nor do I really care. That's between you and your deity.

What do I get if you get saved or not? Not a thing. Zip Zero Nada. You are the one who gains not me .

But you don't bother to examine yourself and wonder why it takes so little?

Please tell me you didnt just complete assume what Ive done in the same thread you throw out the word self righteous? Do you have any idea what that means? I havent posted the first self righteous thing to you , nothing . You did though , you have judged me , pretended to know what ive done and havent done and even the very amount . Telling you what Gods word says and passing the sentence are two very different things . I havent condemned you not one bit , its not my place and i always talk about peoples free will to choose . I merely state to you what the bible says and what i believe . What you choose to do with that knowledge is strictly up to you but if this is how you discuss issues , I will avoid speaking with you in the future . You dont have to agree with me one single bit , but there is no reason for assumptions , baseless allegations , and downright hostility . May God bless you with His truth in a way you can understand it and receive it .

ChristianDude777 · Apr 15, 2005

God's blessings to you all,

Please excuse me for writing in this forum because I am a Christian. But this question is really powerful, especially for non-Christians.

I'm writing to address a couple of points that were brought up.

Concerning trusting a dead person, Jesus is in no way dead. He's more alive than we can even imagine. He IS the eternal life...the true source of our actual life force (so to speak). He did indeed die but conquered death and rose again from death into resurrection life. That is, life that reaches far past the lives we all now live. His life will never end or fade.

Concerning evidence, we do have much evidence that He lived and that He was who He claimed to be. The evidence that is most near is in the lives of those who love Him. Their transformed lives are real evidence. My own life included. I was once a very wild person...mean, hateful, anti-social. But once I confessed and believed, He instantly made changes in my heart that I was never able to make. I now have love for people that I never had before that day in Septermber of 1988.

There is more evidence in the abundant ancient writings. Ancient papyrus (?) artifacts that have been discovered. Ancient writings by other sources, which are not Christian, that speak very clearly of Him and describe His crucifixion.

We don't have merely one Gospel that details His life, but four. Four witnesses to His Divinity.

I addition to these, we have miracles that take place in people's lives regularly. I personally have seen demons cast out, the deaf healed, alcoholics of 20 years touched by Jesus who poured our their alcohol, never to touch it again and be instantly transformed. I've seen drug dealers fall on their knees with tears running down their face because Jesus touched their hearts. There are people that I've known personally. My own Pastor was addicted to cocain and at the point of suicide with a gun literally at his head ready to pull the triger when Jesus saved Him. That was 14 years ago and he's never touched a drug since, has had his family restored, and is preaching the Gospel to people around the world. These things couldn't be done if Jesus wasn't real and didn't have Divine life.

There's a narrow path we must follow and it's sometimes difficult to see, but it leads to a place that you'll never even know exists until you place your whole faith in Jesus as the Son of God.

God loves us all and He will reveal Himself to all who dilligently seek Him with sincere hearts. There's nothing to lose in this life but everything to lose in eternity.

God bless you all...

Tim

corvus_corax · Apr 15, 2005

Angel4Truth said:
What would it take to trust Christ for all of you who are not believers?

A proof of universalism. Biblical or empirical.
CharlieV has done a good job, but Id need to sit down and speak to a universalist as well-versed as Charlie is.
Its the only doctrine that makes sense to me (in a "God is love" sort of way).
Im not saying Im familiar with all doctrines, this is just the one that Ive been exposed to that makes most sense to me.

ChristianCenturion · Apr 15, 2005

morningstar2651 said:
I believe in Jesus and I believe in Jehova - but I'm not Christian, Islamic, or Jewish.

That one probably throws a few people for a loop.

Not really, it depends on what is meant by "believe in" and what is the definition of the the named Jesus and/or Jehovah.

vajradhara · Apr 15, 2005

huh... i was hoping someone would care to address my request for some intersubjective evidence...

no takers, eh?

ChristianCenturion · Apr 15, 2005

vajradhara said:
huh... i was hoping someone would care to address my request for some intersubjective evidence...

no takers, eh?

That depends on what you mean by inter-subjective. Is that simply meaning that more than one person or is it qualified that other persons are not to be of like faith? And is the evidence to be of God/Jesus or simply something that is beyond reasoning? I'm sorry, but I didn't dig back to see your previous request and it's context and I'm a little confused with the mixture of 'evidence' and the word subjective - it seems contradicting.

Chrysalis Kat · Apr 15, 2005

ChristianDude777 said:
God's blessings to you all,Please excuse me for writing in this forum because I am a Christian. But this question is really powerful, especially for non-Christians. Tim

Tim, this is a non-exclusive forum. All members can post here, christian or not. No need to appologize.

vajradhara · Apr 15, 2005

Namaste ChristianCenturion,

thanks for the post. no worries... it's the same request.. just more wordy.

Intersubjectivity-1 (asconsensual agreement): This standard meaning consensual validation between independent subjects via exchange of signalsderives from Cartesian subjectivity (isolated, independent subjects). In this case, individual subjectivity ontologically precedes intersubjectivity. Individual, isolated subjects come first, and then through communication of signals arrive at consensual agreement. Here, the inter in intersubjectivity refers to agreement between subjects about so-called objective factsand the subjects dont even have to interact (their agreement could be validated by a third party, as indeed is often the case in science). Standard intersubjectivity relies on exchange of physical signals (for example, through spoken words communicated via air vibrations and/or electronic signals, or written words or symbols printed on a page).

Intersubjectivity-2 (as participation): This is the weak-experiential meaning: Mutual engagement and participation between independent subjects, which conditions their respective experience. Here, the sense of individual subjects remains, but now intersubjectivity refers to how the experience or consciousness of participating subjects is influenced and conditioned by their mutual interaction and engagement. The emphasis here is on the experienced interiority of the subjects as they interact, not on their objective agreement about some item of knowledge. Although this is a significant shift of emphasis from the standard meaning of intersubjectivity, nevertheless it is weak compared with the strong shift we will look at below.

It is weak, not because the participation and engagement involved is weakindeed it could be intensebut because it refers to changes that happen to the form of consciousness of the participating subjects, not to the fact of such consciousness. It is weak insofar as it refers to the contents, not the context, of consciousness. It is a weak meaning of intersubjectivity because it addresses psychological rather than philosophical issues; weak because it still posits subjectivity as ontologically prior to intersubjectivity. Here, the inter in intersubjectivity refers to the mutual structural coupling of experiencing subjects, where the already existing interiorities of the participating subjects are interdependently shaped by their interaction. Weak or psychological intersubjectivity relies on nonphysical presence, and affects the contents of pre-existing subjects.

Intersubjectivity-3 (as co-creation): This is the strong-experiential meaning: Mutual co-arising and engagement of interdependent subjects, or intersubjects that creates their respective experience. It is ontological, the most radical meaning, and the one that poses the greatest challenge to philosophy of mind.

According to this stronger meaning, intersubjectivity is truly a process of co-creativity, where relationship is ontologically primary. All individuated subjects co-emerge, or co-arise, as a result of a holistic field of relationships. The being of any one subject is thoroughly dependent on the being of all other subjects with which it is in relationship. Here, intersubjectivity precedes subjectivity (in the second, Cartesian, sense, but subjectivity in the first sense, of experienced interiority, is implicit throughout). The fact, not just the form, of subjectivity (Cartesian sense) is a consequence of intersubjectivity. Here, the inter in intersubjectivity refers to an interpenetrating co-creation of various centers of subjectivitya thoroughly holistic and organismic mutuality. Strong, or ontological, intersubjectivity relies on co-creative nonphysical presence, and brings distinct subjects into being out of a prior matrix of relationship.

The basic difference to note among these three meanings is that in (1) intersubjective agreement, my language about the world conforms to yours, through exchange of conceptual and linguistic tokens; in (2) intersubjective participation, my experience of myself shows up qualitatively differently when I engage with you (or others) as a reciprocating center of experience; and in (3) intersubjective co-creativity, my very experience of beingmy "wifl" or "what-it-feels-like" to beis a mutual co-creation, in every moment, among all reciprocating centers of experience.

The first kind, the standard meaning of intersubjectivity, is used to describe what otherwise goes by the name of objectivity in science. In the second and third senses, intersubjectivity happens through participation and mutual presence, and we dont even have to agree. In fact, the vitality of this form of intersubjectivity is that it is often heightened by authentic disagreement and exploration of differences.

robot24 · Apr 15, 2005

i dig jesus and jesus' messages
i don't like the churches built in around him
and i don't think the bible is to be taken literally

snowydc2003 · Apr 15, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
I dont believe Christ was a divine being, even when I was Christian, I didnt believe in his divinity.

But if Christ is really a divine figgure, he would have to come to me personally and tell me what he wanted.

Same here

HouseApe · Apr 15, 2005

Angel4Truth said:
The fact that there are no correct prophecies in the Quran, that muhammed changes the hebrew scriptures and christian ones that were here long before and borrowing can clearly be shown . The fact that muhammed himself questioned his own sanity and often behaved as if he were demon possessed . I could go on and on but do not wish to offend , if someone wants to speak to me directly about islam and what ive studied , I feel this issue is better treated one on one , I never seek to offend anyone and try to choose my words carefully because my first priority is giving the truth of the Gospel as God would lead me .

No , there are over a billion people who 'claim' to be muslims because in most muslim countries , it is a forced religion and one cannot choose anything else openly . The fact that it has to be forced in order to be followed and choosing it deliberately is rare in comparison to its numbers also
no muslim can tell me how allah affects their lives because islam teaches that allah cannot be known and that he saves who he wills and no one knows who that will be and no one can be asured of their place in 'paradise' unless committing jihad or dying as martyr of the faith.

I have checked out its claims and found them wanting by more than just a little , its not an option for me . I fully believe in studying other religions and I dont just jump to conclusions or just pick any biased web page or book and think that is my entire authority on the subject .

I carefully weigh both sides in light of both religious and secular history and I find muhammed to be merely a man who wanted glory for himself and who was extremely angered by the jews who refused to accept him as their messiah and he turned that hatred inward and the quoran was born out of that hatred for them . This is my opinion that ive come to by studying both the quoran and him 9muhammed) and I could write volumes on how ive come to my opinion on this topic from what ive studied on it .

I dont believe that anyone should take the step of commiting themselves to God lightly , and I also dont believe that God wants us to have blind faith but faith that is grounded in truth. Real truth means complete trust and no one can completely trust anything if they cannot get their head around it.

I find it admirable that you have at least looked into the issue. And I agree with you on most points. But I do not have complete trust in Christianity either.

However there is still the issue of us being open and WILLING to seek Him in our hearts , but once you have enough to know that there is in fact a God and that He wants to be known by you and wants relationship with you because youll be moved by the spirit - you can then extend the measure of faith that He gave to each of us and then youll be filled and sealed with His Spirit becoming a new creation in Christ.

I have been on my knees and prayed for God to show me that he exists many, many times in my life. I have tried to believe with what I felt was "all my heart". Either I have never received a response, or God has always been a part of my life and I can't tell the difference.

Salubri · Apr 15, 2005

Ok if Christianity is the only way, the why would God send Jesus to the Jerusalem (or wherever in the Middle East the NT took place)...and ONLY that place. Wouldn't you think he would have spread out the influence a tad more, just a lil maybe? I mean he IS supposed to be GOD after all, why the poor managemnet of this supposedly only path to salvation?

Angel4Truth · Apr 15, 2005

HouseApe said:
I find it admirable that you have at least looked into the issue. And I agree with you on most points. But I do not have complete trust in Christianity either.

I have been on my knees and prayed for God to show me that he exists many, many times in my life. I have tried to believe with what I felt was "all my heart". Either I have never received a response, or God has always been a part of my life and I can't tell the difference.

I believe that if you did that with sincere seeking for the truth in your heart and you were willing to give up yourself for what He wills for you , that its not over yet for you . Before I was commited to Christ I went through the same thing . I would almost beg Him to show himself to me and even when i was an early believer , I struggled with many things in the bible untill i kept searching for answers and then would instead find that my faith was even more founded than it was before and found that in my very stuggles when i felt he wasnt there and didnt hear , He was always there . God knows what the very best moments in our life are to reveal himself to us in ways we can understand and know it was Him . Often when we are at our very lowest , He is what is carrying us and we dont even realize it .

Does this mean we will never suffer doubt? No , even the believer sometimes has periods of reflection and worry and doubt , but when we give them to Him , He shows us that everything happens for a reason .

Let me give you an example from my own personal life .

When my husband and myself were engaged and were getting things ready to be married - we were trying to buy a home to move into after we were married and had carefully prayed during the process that He would lead us to what He wanted us to bid on and if it was His will , He would let us know . We believed He spoke to us both about a certain home so we proceeded to go through the bidding process and sure enough we got it even though it was a very nice property with many bids to consider. We proceeded to set everything up so closing would be 2 weeks before we were to be married and leave for our honeymoon .

Everything seemed to be going perfectly and we were even delighted to find out that the people were buying the home from were also christians which again confirmed to us that God had indeed spoken to us to bid on this home and that everything would be alright . Needless to say 3 days before the house was to close , there was a problem with the apraisal . We were in a position that the only thing we could do was to trust God and we continued to pray about it but were starting to wonder like humans often do , if we had heard what we felt we heard and were starting to doubt even though we knew we had been spoken to . So we told God that we would just trust Him even if it meant problems that we would leave it in His hands and if there was any problem He knew about that we didnt know , we would accept getting the home or not getting it and be thankful for his involvement either way , because of our doubt , we also asked God for forgiveness for our doubts , speaking again that we were sure we heard that He wanted us to continue to go through this .

As a result since we decided to continue the process and appeal the apraisal the people (who were also christian) went ahead and moved out of the home in anticipation of us buying the home so it would be ready when it was over .We were married and on our honeymoon while we waited to hear back about the apraisal and were called the last day with the knowledge that it came back , but still was not where it needed to be , so we made an offer for the apraisal amount because the bank wouldnt back higher than the worth of the home . The seller now decided they wanted more and wanted to take the apraisal company to court because they didnt believe it was a fair one .

Anyway , so we were devestated , nowhere to move to back from our honeymoon , and they were also living in temporary conditions waiting on the sale of the home . Both of us couples christian and both believing that we had heard from God about the whole thing , yet it appeared everything had fallen apart . We thanked God anyway and asked Him to help us find another place quickly to move into . Our search took one day after being back from our honeymoon to have a place to live but we had to rent a home. But you can imagine how devestated we felt and that we were both wondering if we had really heard from God and were deeply saddened that everything turned out this way and conituning to thank God for his wisdom even though we didnt know why it happened when everything seemed so right before .

Needless to say 2 weeks after we moved into the home we rented , we got a call from the real estate agent who represented us in trying to buy that other home and were told that the day before the home flooded with 12 inches of water . The entire home flooded even though it wasnt in a flood zone because of a freak storm that dumped 13 inches of water in the area and the creek that was 100 feet from their home swelled so badly from a lake it connected to several miles away jumped it banks and flooded all the homes in the neighborhood even the pools were messed up from the flood so it was massive damage to the area homes.

We would not have had flood insurance on this home because it wasnt required because of its zoning , we had elected not to get it . We would have lost everything right after marrying and moving in . They had flood insurance even though it was not nessesary because of the area . Because of our contract on the home and us hearing from God to continue when it seemed impossible , they had moved out of the home so it was empty when it happened . they lost nothing of their personal belongings , and were able to file a claim to get the home itself repaired. Gods will was heard and done even though we didnt understand it at the time .

We were saved and they were saved because of what we both on both sides heard from God . If we had not bid and pressed on , they would have lost everything too. So we have to be thankful for whatever happens when we follow Gods will for us even when we dont understand it , because we cant see the reasons for everything that is happening and most things are affecting more lives than just our own . So now whenever I have doubts nagging at me , i press on and just trust God all the more that He knows and can see what I cannot .

Your life isnt finished yet . If you have honestly and sincerely wanted to know Him and were willing to give up your will for His , i believe that you will know Him one day very personally .God bless you.

Angel4Truth · Apr 16, 2005

Salubri said:
Ok if Christianity is the only way, the why would God send Jesus to the Jerusalem (or wherever in the Middle East the NT took place)...and ONLY that place. Wouldn't you think he would have spread out the influence a tad more, just a lil maybe? I mean he IS supposed to be GOD after all, why the poor managemnet of this supposedly only path to salvation?

Because God chose the jews to be His witness to the world and if you study any jewish history and compare it to the bible it will astound you. Even their existance today is astounding to even many secular writers - they defy reason and i believe what the bible says concering them , that He will bless those who bless them and curse those who curse them - thats the abrahamic covenant and i believe it, i also believe that is why this country has been so blessed - look at the 6 day war sometime when all the arab countries came against them - amazing ... this another thing i could go on and on about - anyway He also came there Because of the prophecies in the OT that had been given to Gods chosen prophets , and they were given so it would be known who the messiah was . It was even prophecied that they would reject their messiah.But this was done for the purpose of the rest of the world so they would be grafted into salvation . Its not over yet .

Blessed be the name of the Lord and all who come in His name , and pray for peace for His people and Jerusalem.

Angel4Truth · Apr 16, 2005

vajradhara said:
huh... i was hoping someone would care to address my request for some intersubjective evidence...

no takers, eh?

How do you feel about what I posted above?

What would it take to trust Christ?

Secrecy and Accountability Cannot Co-Exist

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