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What would it take to disprove atheism?

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UnReAL13

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I like to think of the default position as "atheist." The atheist is no more convinced that there isn't a god than a theist is convinced there is.

But the one making the claim that there is a god is the one who needs to offer supporting evidence. The atheist does not because he simply doesn't believe the claims theists are making.

I'm my opinion, it is the simplest and most obvious position to take on theism.

I think Agnosticism is the default position, because there's a fundamental lack of knowedge to begin with. "New Atheism" tries to include Agnosticism under its banner with the modern definition of "lack of belief", but this is a very new interpretation of Atheism, and an extremely broad one at that.
 
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UnReAL13

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Metaphysics is philosophy, not science.

Much of our known science is open to philosophical interpretations, especially when dealing with vague and abstract concepts like the true nature of reality. Discoveries in quantum mechanics have actually made some physicists kill themselves over the implications.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I think Agnosticism is the default position, because there's a fundamental lack of knowedge to begin with. "New Atheism" tries to include Agnosticism under its banner with the modern definition of "lack of belief", but this is a very new interpretation of Atheism, and an extremely broad one at that.

In the end, labels don't matter.

The word "atheist" is a stupid word anyway. It doesn't tell you anything. It's a word that describes what you don't believe. It's what you do believe that matters. So identifying someone by what they don't believe is rather hollow.
 
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True Scotsman

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In the end, labels don't matter.

The word "atheist" is a stupid word anyway. It doesn't tell you anything. It's a word that describes what you don't believe. It's what you do believe that matters. So identifying someone by what they don't believe is rather hollow.

Well said!
 
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UnReAL13

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In the end, labels don't matter.

The word "atheist" is a stupid word anyway. It doesn't tell you anything. It's a word that describes what you don't believe. It's what you do believe that matters. So identifying someone by what they don't believe is rather hollow.

LoL it is kind of interesting how there are different forms of "nonbelief". Like Sam Harris said "We don't identify ourselves as non-alchemists or non-astrologers". It's as if being a nonbeliever suddenly became a religion in itself with varying denominations of its own.

I know that part of the reason for this is that Atheism carries a sort of stigma that many nonbelievers wish to detach themselves from. A lot of people feel ostracized by being identified as a "Militant Atheist". Society also has this kind of twisted need to categorize everything. We live in a day and age where everything is defined, and if it can't be easily classified it's an "anomaly" of some sort. Ultimately it's just another way of dividing people and creating conflicts.
 
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True Scotsman

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Question for the group: If you are an atheist, what would it take to convince you that there truly is "something" rather than "nothing"?

Or is it possible? (I have a feeling that some loathe the concept of God so much, they could watch the seas part & they would STILL find a reason to doubt.....)

I've already said how I could be convinced. Let me state it differently. Prove to me that reality is subjective. If you do that you will be most of the way there?
 
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Dave Ellis

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No, it doesn't work like that with any faith, or lack there of. It is the same argument claiming Hitler was a Christian because he was from a Catholic family - ignoring that unrepentant murderers cannot call themselves Christian because they arent.

Sure they are. If they accept Jesus as their saviour, they're as Christian as you are. Unless of course you're arguing that people who sin against their fellow man can't be Christian.

It is sinister to try to pull anyone from their faith, especially through incredulity and ridicule. If it makes you uncomfortable I don't know what to tell you.

What if their faith is ill conceived and based in falsehoods and deception? Would it not be sinister to allow that person to continue in that worldview without hearing alternative (i.e. truthful) views?
 
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Dave Ellis

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I think Agnosticism is the default position, because there's a fundamental lack of knowedge to begin with. "New Atheism" tries to include Agnosticism under its banner with the modern definition of "lack of belief", but this is a very new interpretation of Atheism, and an extremely broad one at that.


No, actually that's always been the definition of Atheism (A-theism = Without Theism)

The default position for any claim is non belief until the claim is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Much of our known science is open to philosophical interpretations, especially when dealing with vague and abstract concepts like the true nature of reality. Discoveries in quantum mechanics have actually made some physicists kill themselves over the implications.


Not really, because philosophical implications have no objective grounding in reality.

You can attempt to philosophize using a scientific discovery, however it has no part in the actual scientific discovery itself.
 
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Dave Ellis

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In the end, labels don't matter.

The word "atheist" is a stupid word anyway. It doesn't tell you anything. It's a word that describes what you don't believe. It's what you do believe that matters. So identifying someone by what they don't believe is rather hollow.


I don't think it's stupid at all, and the word has a lot of use in this day and age.

The thing you're missing is if we lived in a world without religion, then the term atheist would have as much meaning as a non-astrologer.

On the flip side, if we lived in a world where 90% of the people believed Santa Claus was real, the label describing the remaining 10% would have a lot of utility.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Timmy is a human.

Timmy is a murderer.

Therefore, all humans are murderers.


No, it doesn't work like that with any faith, or lack there of. It is the same argument claiming Hitler was a Christian because he was from a Catholic family - ignoring that unrepentant murderers cannot call themselves Christian because they arent. If the rules of being a follower of Fonziism means I have to sacrifice a leather jacket every day, and I dont, then I am just someone posing as a Fonz.

The general rule by which people judge whether someone is a Christian or not is whether they believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Whatever else they happen to believe, or however else they choose to behave, is immaterial to that point. If they acknowledge belief in Christ, they are a Christian.

SOME Evangelicals, and whomever else, may have missed the memo that you do not bash the faith into heads, or outwardly force a conversion. We plant a seed, them move on. Indeed, some will even ask the person if they want to hear, because everyone is responsible for the information they use, or do not use. It is sinister to try to pull anyone from their faith, especially through incredulity and ridicule. If it makes you uncomfortable I don't know what to tell you.

How is this any different from what the atheists you call "sinister" do? We too plant a seed and then move on. If it's not sinister when evangelicals do it to people of other faiths (or no faith at all), then why would it be sinister when atheists do it?
 
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Lollerskates

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The general rule by which people judge whether someone is a Christian or not is whether they believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Whatever else they happen to believe, or however else they choose to behave, is immaterial to that point. If they acknowledge belief in Christ, they are a Christian.

That is what people who do not follow the faith believe, what has been the standard of the world, and the box Christianity is put into. By the is logic, someone like Hitler would be a Christian, or even some non-Christians. It is a simplistic pigeonhole perpetuated by the ignorance and lack of understanding by both believers and nonbelievers of the world. It is also easy to see why so many are confused as to "how God would allow a murderer who just asks for forgiveness into heaven, but makes a 'good' non believer burn for 'eternity.'" Christ, and the prophets are clear on what makes a (wo)man of God: that is the standard.


Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:19-26

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:21-23

If a man say, “I love God,” and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1 John 4:20

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:15-17

And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
John 18:18-22.

This is all in addition to being born of a human female's womb, and again spiritually through belief and faith in Christ, and His sacrifice and resurrection. You cannot just "acknowledge" or "believe that He is the son of God;" that is a worldly misunderstanding and traditional thought that is not reflective of the word of God. Both believer and non believer are fully of this folly sometimes.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Hosea 4:6


How is this any different from what the atheists you call "sinister" do? We too plant a seed and then move on. If it's not sinister when evangelicals do it to people of other faiths (or no faith at all), then why would it be sinister when atheists do it?

This time, I will quote myself. If you still don't get it, then that is on you.

And, once again I will continue to stand by my comment that anyone who has the intention of making someone lose their faith, or renounce it for their own argumentative faith alignment is sinister. Especially if that coercion comes from ridicule, disdain, scoffing and incredulity.

If you are a Christian, and you intentionally try to make people LOSE their faith in their religion with a barrage of incredulous, disdainful, insulting and ridiculous comments, (and continue to pass it off as logic or debate especially,) then that is sinister. The context and difference is a mental, psychological, verbal or physical assault. Westboro Baptist Church does sinister things.

So, I would consider anyone who demeans, or marginalized someone else's faith with an arsenal of mental, physical, psychological and/or verbal darts sinister -especially if done to vindicate one's own faith. It is vain and a form of mind control. Call out the hypocrites, but stop ignorantly making blanketed statements, ignoring context and what people say who actually subscribe to the faith you don't believe in. And, keep in minds I am also talking about action. This is my third time explain this.

And, try to realize that if you are going to argue something you really do not believe in, at least be knowledgeable on what you are talking about. Each human is a individual; God does not respect persons, but faith and obedience. If x-group does not follow the bible, the you cannot say the whole lot is guilty of those transgressions, and it would be asinine to assign perpetual it to individuals.
 
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Dave Ellis

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That is what people who do not follow the faith believe, what has been the standard of the world, and the box Christianity is put into. By the is logic, someone like Hitler would be a Christian, or even some non-Christians. It is a simplistic pigeonhole perpetuated by the ignorance and lack of understanding by both believers and nonbelievers of the world. It is also easy to see why so many are confused as to "how God would allow a murderer who just asks for forgiveness into heaven, but makes a 'good' non believer burn for 'eternity.'" Christ, and the prophets are clear on what makes a (wo)man of God: that is the standard.

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Lollerskates

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Hmm..

So all atheists are genocidal, amoral hedonists that take pleasure in destroying the faith of people who believe a deity?

I distinctively remember God and Christmas speaking about hypocrites and liars a lot, specifically how it affects your relationship with Him i.e. whether or not you are Christian/His people. It is listed in the Christian text for all to see. So, you could have saved time and actually read those verses - especially where people who thought they were "in" were really out, and for what reason.

Then you will understand how your reply doesn't apply. If the exact blue print is written, and you diverge from it, then it isn't genuine to the design. Four white side stripes on a shoe is not an Addidas Shoe, no matter how much it looks like one.
 
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UnReAL13

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No, actually that's always been the definition of Atheism (A-theism = Without Theism)

The default position for any claim is non belief until the claim is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Atheism means "without god" or "to deny the gods". To say "without Theism" is only translating the word halfway, and would technically include Deism. Which is obviously ridiculous.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Hmm..

So all atheists are genocidal, amoral hedonists that take pleasure in destroying the faith of people who believe a deity?


That's possibly the dumbest conclusion I've ever read.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Atheism means "without god" or "to deny the gods". To say "without Theism" is only translating the word halfway, and would technically include Deism. Which is obviously ridiculous.


Theism means a belief in the existence of at least one god.

The prefix A- means "without" in the English Language. For example, Asexual means without sexuality, asymmetry means without symmetry, asymptomatic means without symptoms, etc.

Atheism means without theism, meaning you do not have a belief in a god (even a deistic one). It's not a half-translation, it's fully in line with the rest of the English language.

To get the term "without god", you'd have to refer to to the Greek word "Atheos" which is a root word of the English phrase, but of course not an English word itself. We don't generally put the meaning of archaic language onto modern words, so I don't see why you're trying to do it here....
 
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Archaeopteryx

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That is what people who do not follow the faith believe, what has been the standard of the world, and the box Christianity is put into. By the is logic, someone like Hitler would be a Christian, or even some non-Christians.

Yes, he would be.

It is a simplistic pigeonhole perpetuated by the ignorance and lack of understanding by both believers and nonbelievers of the world. It is also easy to see why so many are confused as to "how God would allow a murderer who just asks for forgiveness into heaven, but makes a 'good' non believer burn for 'eternity.'" Christ, and the prophets are clear on what makes a (wo)man of God: that is the standard.

Whatever your doctrines or theological differences, if another person claims belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, he or she is a Christian. You can argue that they aren't a very good Christian, or even that they are perpetuating heresy. But they are still a Christian.

James 2:19-26

Matt 7:21-23

1 John 4:20

John 14:15-17

John 18:18-22.

This is all in addition to being born of a human female's womb, and again spiritually through belief and faith in Christ, and His sacrifice and resurrection. You cannot just "acknowledge" or "believe that He is the son of God;" that is a worldly misunderstanding and traditional thought that is not reflective of the word of God. Both believer and non believer are fully of this folly sometimes.

I'm sorry, but just because you believe this doesn't mean that all Christians do, or that all Christians interpret those verses in the same way that you do.


This time, I will quote myself. If you still don't get it, then that is on you.

If you are a Christian, and you intentionally try to make people LOSE their faith in their religion with a barrage of incredulous, disdainful, insulting and ridiculous comments, (and continue to pass it off as logic or debate especially,) then that is sinister. The context and difference is a mental, psychological, verbal or physical assault. Westboro Baptist Church does sinister things.

So, I would consider anyone who demeans, or marginalized someone else's faith with an arsenal of mental, physical, psychological and/or verbal darts sinister -especially if done to vindicate one's own faith. It is vain and a form of mind control. Call out the hypocrites, but stop ignorantly making blanketed statements, ignoring context and what people say who actually subscribe to the faith you don't believe in. And, keep in minds I am also talking about action. This is my third time explain this.

And, try to realize that if you are going to argue something you really do not believe in, at least be knowledgeable on what you are talking about. Each human is a individual; God does not respect persons, but faith and obedience. If x-group does not follow the bible, the you cannot say the whole lot is guilty of those transgressions, and it would be asinine to assign perpetual it to individuals.

The intention of evangelism is to convert someone. That applies to all evangelists. If the person at the receiving end has another faith, the intention is for them to renounce that faith and to adopt your own faith. What you implied is that the very goal itself - to convert (or deconvert) someone - is sinister. There are various ways in which one may attempt to convert another person, but the basic goal is the same: conversion.
 
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JGG

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Then you will understand how your reply doesn't apply. If the exact blue print is written, and you diverge from it, then it isn't genuine to the design. Four white side stripes on a shoe is not an Addidas Shoe, no matter how much it looks like one.

Are you saying that anyone who "diverges from the blueprint" cannot be called a Christian? Can we call you a Christian?

Oh and the shoe is not an Adidas shoe because it wasn't made by Adidas. If a counterfeiter had put three stripes on, it still would not have been an Adidas shoe.
 
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