What would it take to disprove atheism?

[Ana the Ist]

Are you every atheist? And, it is awful to wear on someone so much that you cause them to lose faith. You are responsible for your own soul, so blaming others for anything is lame. But, I can comment on people that try to cause others to stumble, and lose faith.



Despite popular belief, Christians plant the seed and move on. We aren't supposed to bash God into people's minds. If someone asks us about God, or Christ, we tell them, and that person is responsible for the information. So, unless I am picketing, or using religion to justify geopolitical activity/atrocities, there is nothing sinister about asking questions.

Affirming how much more logical, ethical, moral, reasonable, intelligent, learned, or sane based on one's belief IS bad. All facets are reasonable for this: all. But, you may need to separate the individual from the lot.



You work for the government; what you *think* is right may not even be right on a State level. So... this is just a personal creed.



It isn't your job to bring anyone anywhere - morally or spiritualy. Every human is soverign, and endowed with the power to choose one's own trajectory. If you are "bringing" people to atheism you are doing too much (subtle ridicule, scoffing, disdain, etc.) Again, you work for the government; you should know you are always being watched - your words, attitude and demeanor. People lurk on these forums, and/or google for answers. So, there is a responsibility active.



I personally found my 17 years of agnosticism as bondage, and everything made sense to me spiritually when I got into physics and math. Everyone is a slave; the sad part is people think they are truly free. Pick your Master. Happiness, and other emotions are just that: emotions. Electromagnetic fields, and chemistry can affect emotion easily. Truth is impervious to tricks.



No. What did you say, you are a bit more smarter than to overtly insult Christians who deserve it? You dont consider their feelings, or do you? Do you consider their trials and struggles? Now, there are MUCH worse people than you (as if you were a serious threat) who cant even admit they go tit for tat sometimes. It is SINISTER what some of these people - atheists - do to Christians. And, it is usually young Christians in faith. I do not go on "MuslimForums" and try to educate them on their alleged folly in faith, and I certainly do not demean and insult them because I do not believe their faith. But, it happens here, and the excuse is always about "having a debate, or reasonable, logical argument."



That is insincere. Between the arguments in culture, forums and science between Christians and Atheists, conversion today has become about Asch Conformity.



Exactly what I am talking about... subtle ridicule and insult. Plausible deniability. Trained well.

Your post reminds me exactly why I avoid telling people i work for the government. It's hard for some, impossible for others, to separate me from that and see me just as a person (not unlike being an atheist actually) and not a representative of some larger "sinister" force that wears others down into submission. And don't think for a minute I'm about to deny the ridicule...I freely admit it. Can you? Your "sinister" comment was every bit as much an insult and full of ridicule in my eyes....are you honest enough with yourself, as I am, to admit as much?

The fact that I'm 'one atheist" doesn't change the fact that your perception is wrong. I've never seen anyone get "wore down" into changing their beliefs. I certainly don't come here to try and change anyone...with one exception, i don't think I could....and he was already headed down the path. I simply removed some of the obstacles that make it difficult to travel. Im sorry Loller, but the way to atheism comes with a smile and a helping hand. I'll give you a basic outline of what it looked like the last time I did it....

A beloved trusted friend who believes comes to me with a problem. It's a moral problem rooted in reality with some very serious consequences. She's so upset, she's crying. She wants to know why I'm not upset, why I'm not conflicted the way she is. I explain these things to her, we examine why she's conflicted. I give her solutions... real ones that don't involve appeals that never get answered. It helps...she feels better and the crisis passes.

Some time later it happens again. This time it's a conflict between what is and what she believes should be. She seeks my help like last time...and like last time, the answers are relatively simple. I explain that there's nothing wrong with hoping for what she believes should be...but she cannot avoid dealing with what is. She begins to see it my way, and she resolves to do what must be done...even if it isn't what she wants. Though it's difficult, she does it, and in time she gets what she wanted. It's not a small thing, it affects her life dramatically... but for the first time in this type of situation, she feels empowered. Instead of waiting and hoping on a change that never comes, she forces that change through the exercise of her own will. She doesn't fully realize it then but she's begun to change...no longer feeling at the whims of something she cannot affect the outcome of.

From them on the conversations aren't as dramatic. They may be deep, or profound, even confessional... but bear little import on daily life. If this...then why that? This never made much sense to me. I always thought this....but not so much anymore. She begins conversations like that with me more and more often... like a flower opening to the sun. It's beautiful to watch that kind of growth and I need not do anything more than participate. Conclusions I reached long ago she begins to reach in much the same way.... none of it forced, nothing cajoled, no "wearing down" required. Indeed, the process is much the opposite.

Then one day, a tearful confession...."I no longer believe in god". I congratulate her... it's satisfying to here her describe the difference between how she thinks now and how she thought then. It's joyful to know the shackles she wore of her own choosing back then are gone... never to drive the kind of pain and conflict they caused before ever again. She finds herself stronger than she ever thought before... but I had always known she had it in her.

That's how it happened for my wife at least. Nothing remotely sinister about it... born entirely out of my love for her, my desire to see her happy, and her own bravery and strength. It took about two years... longer than some, shorter than others.

So I'm sure the process must've seemed something like your own.... only in reverse. And you know what? Good for you... I think you need your belief.

But please don't think you get to sit there behind your keyboard and paint atheists as some sinister force, wearing others down out of their faith because of some evil desire to do harm to people and the world....and then feign offense when I respond to it. That's a child's fantasy... leave it behind.

 

[Lollerskates]

Your post reminds me exactly why I avoid telling people i work for the government. It's hard for some, impossible for others, to separate me from that and see me just as a person (not unlike being an atheist actually) and not a representative of some larger "sinister" force that wears others down into submission. And don't think for a minute I'm about to deny the ridicule...I freely admit it. Can you? Your "sinister" comment was every bit as much an insult and full of ridicule in my eyes....are you honest enough with yourself, as I am, to admit as much?

The fact that I'm 'one atheist" doesn't change the fact that your perception is wrong. I've never seen anyone get "wore down" into changing their beliefs. I certainly don't come here to try and change anyone...with one exception, i don't think I could....and he was already headed down the path. I simply removed some of the obstacles that make it difficult to travel. Im sorry Loller, but the way to atheism comes with a smile and a helping hand. I'll give you a basic outline of what it looked like the last time I did it....

A beloved trusted friend who believes comes to me with a problem. It's a moral problem rooted in reality with some very serious consequences. She's so upset, she's crying. She wants to know why I'm not upset, why I'm not conflicted the way she is. I explain these things to her, we examine why she's conflicted. I give her solutions... real ones that don't involve appeals that never get answered. It helps...she feels better and the crisis passes.

Some time later it happens again. This time it's a conflict between what is and what she believes should be. She seeks my help like last time...and like last time, the answers are relatively simple. I explain that there's nothing wrong with hoping for what she believes should be...but she cannot avoid dealing with what is. She begins to see it my way, and she resolves to do what must be done...even if it isn't what she wants. Though it's difficult, she does it, and in time she gets what she wanted. It's not a small thing, it affects her life dramatically... but for the first time in this type of situation, she feels empowered. Instead of waiting and hoping on a change that never comes, she forces that change through the exercise of her own will. She doesn't fully realize it then but she's begun to change...no longer feeling at the whims of something she cannot affect the outcome of.

From them on the conversations aren't as dramatic. They may be deep, or profound, even confessional... but bear little import on daily life. If this...then why that? This never made much sense to me. I always thought this....but not so much anymore. She begins conversations like that with me more and more often... like a flower opening to the sun. It's beautiful to watch that kind of growth and I need not do anything more than participate. Conclusions I reached long ago she begins to reach in much the same way.... none of it forced, nothing cajoled, no "wearing down" required. Indeed, the process is much the opposite.

Then one day, a tearful confession...."I no longer believe in god". I congratulate her... it's satisfying to here her describe the difference between how she thinks now and how she thought then. It's joyful to know the shackles she wore of her own choosing back then are gone... never to drive the kind of pain and conflict they caused before ever again. She finds herself stronger than she ever thought before... but I had always known she had it in her.

That's how it happened for my wife at least. Nothing remotely sinister about it... born entirely out of my love for her, my desire to see her happy, and her own bravery and strength. It took about two years... longer than some, shorter than others.

So I'm sure the process must've seemed something like your own.... only in reverse. And you know what? Good for you... I think you need your belief.

But please don't think you get to sit there behind your keyboard and paint atheists as some sinister force, wearing others down out of their faith because of some evil desire to do harm to people and the world....and then feign offense when I respond to it. That's a child's fantasy... leave it behind.

A hit dog will holler.

And, I could care less about sob stories from you, as I have seen your posts, and your activity. It is good you admit whatever, but honestly you don't have to admit anything to me or anyone. If it is integrity that compels you, remember that integrity when interacting with Christians on a forum of the titular name.

And, once again I will continue to stand by my comment that anyone who has the intention of making someone lose their faith, or renounce it for their own argumentative faith alignment is sinister. Especially if that coercion comes from ridicule, disdain, scoffing and incredulity.

The big "I" for you.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A hit dog will holler.

And, I could care less about sob stories from you, as I have seen your posts, and your activity. It is good you admit whatever, but honestly you don't have to admit anything to me or anyone. If it is integrity that compels you, remember that integrity when interacting with Christians on a forum of the titular name.

And, once again I will continue to stand by my comment that anyone who has the intention of making someone lose their faith, or renounce it for their own argumentative faith alignment is sinister. Especially if that coercion comes from ridicule, disdain, scoffing and incredulity.

The big "I" for you.

Gotcha. Not sure why you thought it a "sob" story. It's one I remember fondly. I wouldn't expect you to change your mind... ignorance can be as much of a choice as those shackles I just mentioned. No one can say I didn't try though.

Since you remember my earlier statements so well, you'll remember when I fling insults, ridicule, scoff, or show disdain to a believer it's because some of them happens to be of low character and frankly deserve no better....not out of desire to sodomize their faith. This being a christian forum doesn't put them beyond reproach in my eyes. So if you find any of my words pointed at you... you won't need to be reminded why.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

A hit dog will holler.

And, I could care less about sob stories from you, as I have seen your posts, and your activity. It is good you admit whatever, but honestly you don't have to admit anything to me or anyone. If it is integrity that compels you, remember that integrity when interacting with Christians on a forum of the titular name.

And, once again I will continue to stand by my comment that anyone who has the intention of making someone lose their faith, or renounce it for their own argumentative faith alignment is sinister. Especially if that coercion comes from ridicule, disdain, scoffing and incredulity.

The big "I" for you.

You must have a low opinion of Christian evangelists then.

 

[Lollerskates]

You must have a low opinion of Christian evangelists then.

If you say so...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If you say so...

Well, they try to make someone renounce their faith and accept Christ instead. According to you, "anyone who has the intention of making someone lose their faith, or renounce it for their own argumentative faith alignment is sinister." Ergo, Christian evangelists are sinister.

 

[PsychoSarah]

That is right, and many do. The One in question, however, is very involved in our lives.



The philosophic context is about vindicating either Christian or atheist ideas about existence, and [dis]belief. Philosophically, I agree; death does not necessarily prove deities, as you can be in a spin cycle of reincarnation before you ever meet a deity. In terms of Christianity, it is appointed for man to die once, then judgment. So, death to me would be the answer to the question. As I said, we all have faith - even if we mask it as logic, or "fact." So, the real OP issue about disproving or vindication atheism is primarily a faith issue. Logic, and science are accessories.



O.k. this is why I say all will be revealed at death. If you retain consciousness, and remember a reincarnation, then the options for that branch drop accordingly. If you retain consciousness, and awaken to an all powerful, seeing, and present entity, then you follow that branch. If you wake up on Arcturus, then follow that branch. Death will answer the questions.

Except of course if there is no afterlife there will be no consciousness to have that answer.

 

[Belk]

That is why I said atheists will either be vindicated, or shocked and humbled. It was either-or.

Ah. I thought you were talking about believers. Makes more sense now.

 

[Aldebaran]

Well, they try to make someone renounce their faith and accept Christ instead. According to you, "anyone who has the intention of making someone lose their faith, or renounce it for their own argumentative faith alignment is sinister." Ergo, Christian evangelists are sinister.

How is not believing God exists a faith? Faith in what, nothingness? That's quite a faith you have there!

 

[poolerboy0077]

What would it take to disprove atheism? Well, considering that atheism is simply a term denoting rejection of other people's beliefs, in this case belief in a deity/deities, using the term "disprove" here expresses nothing but confusion on the part of the inquirer. Not surprising, really, since most people here seem to misunderstand the term even once its definition has even spoon fed to them.

 

[Aldebaran]

What would it take to disprove atheism? Well, considering that atheism is simply a term denoting rejection of other people's beliefs, in this case belief in a deity/deities, using the term "disprove" here expresses nothing but confusion on the part of the inquirer. Not surprising, really, since most people here seem to misunderstand the term even once its definition has even spoon fed to them.

So you know how that feels? Good to know!

 

[poolerboy0077]

So you know how that feels? Good to know!

Have I done the same to Christians?

 

[Aldebaran]

Have I done the same to Christians?

What? Misunderstood what things mean even after it has been spoon-fed to you? I believe so. We've been into it before.

 

[poolerboy0077]

What? Misunderstood what things mean even after it has been spoon-fed to you? I believe so. We've been into it before.

Oh? Can you provide me with an example?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

How is not believing God exists a faith? Faith in what, nothingness? That's quite a faith you have there!

You misunderstand. Evangelists aren't solely in the business of converting atheists. They also want to convert people of other religions (i.e., people who already have faith, just not the "right" faith). I never said that not believing in God is a faith.

 

[hownow]

Forty pages? Sorry, I don't have time to read all that right now; is it OK if I just jump in feet first and catch up later? Just responding to the OP -- I have many thoughts but this for starters: I think the definition of "god" would have to change and the glaring contradictions between what is represented about "god" and what the reality one personally encounters would have to change drastically.

Essentially in a very real sense (in my mind -- can't speak for anyone else) atheism has a political aspect, meta-political even. Most of us, whether we admit it or not, endure the fallacious self-serving fiction of so-called human "authority" because it is limited in scope. We put up with parents pushing us around because we know the 18-20 year sentence will come to an end (and some of us figure out how to get out early). We put up with governments and their appointed law enforcing agencies and militaries because not only do we benefit from the service of those people but short of dictatorship and tyranny, we know there's a limit to what they can do and they, too, are answerable (theoretically anyway!) to the same laws they are there to see we answer to (if we break them). Ideally anyway -- we know that isn't always the case in practice but that's the premise and ideal of the "social contract" there. Laying aside the very real problem of corruption and "bad apples in the barrel", as long as I keep my own nose clean I can expect not to be targeted by people with badges and guns, or tossed into a prison. I don't have to like those people personally, kiss their behinds or bend myself into knots trying to please them. I don't have to cater to their egos. I am free to be whomever I feel myself to be, and do what pleases me, and I don't have to concern myself with whether they personally approve thereof or not.

But a single, solitary, ultimate supremacy -- a single office with one sole occupant therein for all eternity presumably invested with the power of life and death (and not just in the physical sense but in some transcendent sense where even the grave offers no relief or freedom from it) -- that borders upon, if not outright crosses over into, unilateralist tyranny. It really is a despicable and odious concept -- IF we separate it from dewy-eyed insistence upon the unquestionable benevolence and perfection of said "god" and just examine the parameters in and of themselves. Doing so, here we have, like I said, a solitary supremacy, against whom there is no appeal (because, to whom?) and from whom there is no release or relief. Add to that the power to rewrite reality itself and all its contents as he sees fit or desires (would we ever know the difference beyond what motives or rationale he claims in that department?) and we have a recipe for unmitigated disaster. Where there is no distinction between law itself and lawmaker(s) and law enforcer(s) and judge(s) and jury(ies) too, there is no meaning or structure to law beyond "what I say it is" (the "I" being said sole supremacy). Where the power to alter reality and even make it from scratch is involved, there's no objective measure, no accountability for that sole supremacy, nothing outside or beyond itself to which it must answer, and nobody and nothing powerful enough to ensure it plays fair.

"I gave you life, therefore I can do with/to you as I wish" is never something we hear good, loving parents say. It's the refuge and excuse of the abusive, manipulative, self-serving sort. "Might makes right" is not the watchword of the diplomat or truly noble man/woman of office, but of the bully, the dictator, the tin-plated tyrant. If such attitudes are not justifiable for limited, imperfect mortals (who can be cut some slack for being so, when it comes to expectations of perfect behavior & attitudes, etc.) then how much LESS should it be considered justifiable for an entity deemed to be all goodness, all love, all perfection?

And yet ultimately that's what it comes down to in the end. "Love me or I will destroy you." Worship that? Never.

And that's what needs to change. I can't promise it will convince any atheists, but it is what needs to change for there to ever even be a point to asking such a question in the first place.

That's my 2 cents. Agree or disagree as you will -- I posted to share, but I'm not really interested in taffy-pulling over it, bickering about it, or trying to "convince" anyone of the merits of my view. You either see them or you don't. If you don't, so be it -- but I'm honestly not interested in tussling over it if that's the case, thanks. I'd rather each person just read what I share and think about it, and decide quietly to yourself if it makes sense or not. I don't need to prove anything to anyone here, and I don't need anything proven to me, either.

 

[Eudaimonist]

A beloved trusted friend who believes comes to me with a problem. It's a moral problem rooted in reality with some very serious consequences. She's so upset, she's crying. She wants to know why I'm not upset, why I'm not conflicted the way she is. I explain these things to her, we examine why she's conflicted. I give her solutions... real ones that don't involve appeals that never get answered. It helps...she feels better and the crisis passes.

Some time later it happens again. This time it's a conflict between what is and what she believes should be. She seeks my help like last time...and like last time, the answers are relatively simple. I explain that there's nothing wrong with hoping for what she believes should be...but she cannot avoid dealing with what is. She begins to see it my way, and she resolves to do what must be done...even if it isn't what she wants. Though it's difficult, she does it, and in time she gets what she wanted. It's not a small thing, it affects her life dramatically... but for the first time in this type of situation, she feels empowered. Instead of waiting and hoping on a change that never comes, she forces that change through the exercise of her own will. She doesn't fully realize it then but she's begun to change...no longer feeling at the whims of something she cannot affect the outcome of.

From them on the conversations aren't as dramatic. They may be deep, or profound, even confessional... but bear little import on daily life. If this...then why that? This never made much sense to me. I always thought this....but not so much anymore. She begins conversations like that with me more and more often... like a flower opening to the sun. It's beautiful to watch that kind of growth and I need not do anything more than participate. Conclusions I reached long ago she begins to reach in much the same way.... none of it forced, nothing cajoled, no "wearing down" required. Indeed, the process is much the opposite.

Then one day, a tearful confession...."I no longer believe in god". I congratulate her... it's satisfying to here her describe the difference between how she thinks now and how she thought then. It's joyful to know the shackles she wore of her own choosing back then are gone... never to drive the kind of pain and conflict they caused before ever again. She finds herself stronger than she ever thought before... but I had always known she had it in her.

That is a beautiful story!


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ana the Ist]

That is a beautiful story!


eudaimonia,

Mark

Hey...thanks Mark! I knew someone would see it that way.

 

[hownow]

Hey...thanks Mark! I knew someone would see it that way.

I do too -- that is totally awesome.

ETA: there, finally figured out how to edit my profile. LOL.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Question for the group: If you are an atheist, what would it take to convince you that there truly is "something" rather than "nothing"?

Or is it possible? (I have a feeling that some loathe the concept of God so much, they could watch the seas part & they would STILL find a reason to doubt.....)

I don't believe there is "nothing"..... there's lots of great things out there. Sunny days, friends, family, etc. Just because I don't believe your god exists does not mean I "believe in nothing".

That being said, as for proving a god exists, I'd need some kind of verifiable evidence. That being said, that's something you should also require to hold such a belief.