What would have happened if......?

[lared]

Please read the following New York Times article from 1939:

NEW YORK TIMES--9/25/1939

GERMAN SOLDIERS RALLIED BY CHURCHES

Protestant and Catholic Exhort to Reich Victory and Just Peace

FRANKFORT-ON-THE-MAIN, GERMANY, SEPT. 24

Periodicals of the German Protestant and Catholic Churches are now publishing many exhortive articles explaining the duties of soldiers fighting in the defense ot their country and admonishing the German soldiers to fight in the spirit of Saint Michael for a German victory and a just peace.
The archangel is shown, brandishing a battlesword and piercing a dragon with a holy lance on the front page of Catholic papers.
In the the western and southern German Catholic dioceses, the clergy headed by the Archbishop and Bishops, are actively engaged in work for the welfare of refugees evacuated from the western frontier districts. Many cloiseters have been transformed into hospitals and the monks and nuns are working under the direction of the Red Cross.
The Catholic Bishops of Germany have issued a pastoral letter stating:
"In this decisive hour we admonish our Catholic soldiers to do their duty in obedience to the Fuehrer and be ready to sacrifice their whole individuality.
"We appeal to the faithful to join in ardent prayers that the Divine Providence of God Almighty may lead this war to blessed success and peace for our fatherland and nation."
Each Bishop in addition has issued a special message to his own diocese including the Bishop of Rottenburg in Wuertiemberg, who was expelled from his diocese last year for refusing to vote in a National Socialist election.
Cardinal Archbishop Bertram, head of the German Episcopal Congregation, has similiarly issued a patriotic message to his flock urging that all "be strong in your heart, all you who confide in God Almighty."

***************************************************

What would have happened if the German Lutheran and Catholic clergy class had applied the teachings of Jesus of love and encouraged their flocks to do the same?

 

[Rescued One]

What would happen if there was a war and nobody went?

Well, we will never know this side of heaven. Because not everyone has qualms about killing the enemy. On September eleventh, our country was attacked and the attackers were not Christians. Because of American resistance, Flight 93 went down in Pennsylvania.

 

[True Believer]

I will probably get jumped on for this ; But here goes anyway,
If the United states never got involved in the wars and politics of the Arab worlds would there have even been an attack on September 11th?

 

[Rescued One]

I will probably get jumped on for this ; But here goes anyway,
If the United states never got involved in the wars and politics of the Arab worlds would there have even been an attack on September 11th?

Does evil exist? Is everyone in the United States a non-resistor or even a Christian?

What would have happened if there had been no American Revolution? What would happen if there were no police anywhere in the world? What if Cain never killed Abel?

 

[oldrooster]

The Germans believed that they were taking back what was stolen from them.

 

[Swart]

I will probably get jumped on for this ; But here goes anyway,
If the United states never got involved in the wars and politics of the Arab worlds would there have even been an attack on September 11th?

I believe that there are both good and bad reasons to go to war. I also believe in the BoM prophecies about America going to war. Any war of aggression that the US gets involved in will be a defeat for them. Thus the US was defeated in 1812 by Canada and in Vietnam. The war in Iraq is an unjust one which the US will come to regret.

What moritifies me is the warring rhetoric espoused by some American LDS. Those who read their history will realise that the biggest supporter of international terrorism is the US government. Most of what we see is a reaction to that.

 

[oldrooster]

Iraq is not a war of agression, sponsors of terror must be punished.

 

[lared]

What would have happened if the German Lutheran and Catholic clergy class had applied the teachings of Jesus of love and encouraged their flocks to do the same?

There is more to this question then meets the eye.

Would you have more respect for Germany's clergy class if they had been true to Jesus?

What would the condition be for the churches in Germany today if they had obeyed God rather then man? (For the most part---the churches are practically empty in Germany today.)

Do you think, back in the 1930's, when religion yielded far more influence then it does today, that the populace would have been influenced by the religious leaders, if they had encouraged obedience to Jesus rather then a madman?

How would you have felt about christendom, (the churches), if you were a Jew, living in Germany, during this time period? Would you have found Christianity to be appealing? Would you want to convert to Lutherism or Catholicism and begin to worship Jesus alongside those religious leaders?

 

[Ratiocination]

Iraq is not a war of agression, sponsors of terror must be punished.

Punished by whom? Is it not God who is the judge of all.

 

[Rescued One]

Punished by whom? Is it not God who is the judge of all.

Did Jesus advocate overthrowing the government?


When anyone judges, God will judge using that same standard.

Luke 12
57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

So do JW's want no police and soldiers in this present world? Are murderers and rapists to run free and prey on society with no restraints?

 

[True Believer]

Did Jesus advocate overthrowing the government?


When anyone judges, God will judge using that same standard.

Luke 12
57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

So do JW's want no police and soldiers in this present world? Are murderers and rapists to run free and prey on society with no restraints?

God can solve this problem man cannot Man perpetuates the war and crime by not following Gods laws and worshipping him. So what if we die because we rufuse to fight! Are we living for the here and now or the promised future reward? Do we trust God or do we feel the need to take matters into our own hands?
If everyone quit following Satan to war there would be no war. But as long as Men feel the need to take matters into thier own hands why should God bother to fix things that man seems to feel the need to fix even though they can't.
Going to war will not solve anything. Just like a fistfight all it proves is who is stronger right now but given time this will also change, so the conflicts will never end if man does not stop joining in himself.
Agape',TB

 

[blessedbe]

While I agree that war is horrible and things would be better if we stopped doing that, the issue is not "what if" but "what do we do now?". The fact of the matter is, war is here to stay. Murder, hate, greed, oppression...all here to stay. Yes, God will take care of all of this in his own time. Yes, we are but "passing through" this life, and looking forward to the next. But!! I don't think that God intended for us to neglect this life also. We are in this world to try to make it a better place, it is our responsibility to try to make it a better place, ALL THE WHILE KNOWING that only God can really do it right. We are responsible for our fellow human beings, and that INCLUDES all those that are outside Jesus' saving grace. If we cannot bring them into Jesus' grace, then we must try to care for them however else we can. I firmly believe this means voting with our conscience in elections, trying to keep good, honest people in leadership roles. I believe this means if one is given the gift of leadership, and feels called into politics, that one should go into politics, being aware of the pressures and temptations of power. I believe this means supporting the men and women who do go into the military, and honoring those who have died to keep us free, free to worship the way we want, free to voice the opinions we have, free to disagree even! We are bound to this world until we die, and I do not believe that when Jesus spoke of us not being of this world, he meant that we should not participate at all in it! HOWEVER, I do not condone the church leaders for getting involved in politics, or voicing their political opinions. That is succumbing to the temptations of power. "Churches" should not be involved in politics, but I think that individual christians certainly can be!
I know an individual who will not fix up his house(it is literally falling down around him), will not go and get a job, does not keep himself neat, and makes no effort to better himself, all because "this world is going to end real soon anyway". Is that what Jesus wanted for us? Is that what God has planned for us? Didn't he put us on this earth for a reason? Yes, we screwed it up in the Garden of Eden, but we are still here, still on this earth, and I think it is our responsibility to make our world around us a better place, and that means doing MORE than "going door to door" and preaching to others. Yes, that is important, in fact, the Great Commission, but not the only thing we have to do as christians.
Having said all that, if women were drafted today, I would be a consciencious objector, refusing to actively participate in war, but I would gladly be placed somewhere like at a hospital where I could assist those wounded. Whether you personally agree with the war or not, it is a fact of life and no amount of "what if" is going to change it. Until Jesus Comes........Come Jesus Come! AMEN!

 

[lared]

So do JW's want no police and soldiers in this present world? Are murderers and rapists to run free and prey on society with no restraints?

Contemplate the life of Jesus.
What was he busy doing?
Did he involve himself in a rebellious cause against the Roman yoke?
Did he not want police or soldiers in this present world?
With all his power, why did he allow murderers and rapists run free on his society?

Etc, etc.

 

[lared]

I suppose if one was NOT exerting themselves vigorously in the work that Jesus commissioned to Christians.....that is the declaring of the good news of the kingdom....then one might be focused on this world and trying hard to solve its problems.

PS---Who do you think Noah voted for political office in his wicked time period? Or do you think he was too busy building the ark?

PS---Isn't it reasonable that a Christian would balance out the scriptures and care for his home, family, and personal appearance, but of course, not neglect the Lord's work?

 

[Rechtgläubig]

There is more to this question then meets the eye.

Would you have more respect for Germany's clergy class if they had been true to Jesus?

What would the condition be for the churches in Germany today if they had obeyed God rather then man? (For the most part---the churches are practically empty in Germany today.)

Do you think, back in the 1930's, when religion yielded far more influence then it does today, that the populace would have been influenced by the religious leaders, if they had encouraged obedience to Jesus rather then a madman?

How would you have felt about christendom, (the churches), if you were a Jew, living in Germany, during this time period? Would you have found Christianity to be appealing? Would you want to convert to Lutherism or Catholicism and begin to worship Jesus alongside those religious leaders?

I think things are a little misleading here. You make it sound as if all Christianity in Germany followed Hitler. Lutherans like Dietrich Bonhoeffer did oppose and eventually died because he resisted and assisted Jews in their escape.

http://www.dbonhoeffer.org/who-was-db2.htmhttp://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Dietrich Bonhoffer

 

[Der Alte]

I think things are a little misleading here. You make it sound as if all Christianity in Germany followed Hitler. Lutherans like Dietrich Bonhoeffer did oppose and eventually died because he resisted and assisted Jews in their escape.

http://www.dbonhoeffer.org/who-was-db2.htmhttp://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Dietrich Bonhoffer

And at the end of the war there were more Christian ministers and priests in concentration camps than all the JWs who had been arrested and killed during the entire war. If our WTBS friends doubt this I have posted the sources in this forum a few months ago.

 

[Rescued One]

God can solve this problem man cannot Man perpetuates the war and crime by not following Gods laws and worshipping him. So what if we die because we rufuse to fight! Are we living for the here and now or the promised future reward? Do we trust God or do we feel the need to take matters into our own hands?
If everyone quit following Satan to war there would be no war. But as long as Men feel the need to take matters into thier own hands why should God bother to fix things that man seems to feel the need to fix even though they can't.
Going to war will not solve anything. Just like a fistfight all it proves is who is stronger right now but given time this will also change, so the conflicts will never end if man does not stop joining in himself.
Agape',TB

Well, we all know that the conflicts won't stop. Even animals defend their young. Should Christian parents just stand by while evil people hurt their children? If JWs and Mennonites don't go to war, will the wars stop?

 

[lared]

If JWs and Mennonites don't go to war, will the wars stop?

You forgot to ask.......if Catholic priests and nuns, Jewish rabbis, Eastern Orthodox priests, and Protestant ministers don't go to war, will the wars stop?

 

[lared]

I think things are a little misleading here. You make it sound as if all Christianity in Germany followed Hitler. Lutherans like Dietrich Bonhoeffer did oppose and eventually died because he resisted and assisted Jews in their escape.

On the German soldier belt buckle were the words.....With Us Is God.

 

[blessedbe]

You forgot to ask.......if Catholic priests and nuns, Jewish rabbis, Eastern Orthodox priests, and Protestant ministers don't go to war, will the wars stop?

'
see, that's the point. Yes. there would be war. If EVERYONE who professes christianity were to not go to war, there would still be war. It is unexcapable. There is no point supposing anything, because there are many more non-christians willing to go to war, and if we stand by and do nothing(and I don't mean just not going to "war") then they would happily exterminate everyone that claims to be christian. It would work wonderfully with Satan's plans.

Lared, I think this goes deeper for you then just not participating in "war". You seem to advocate no involvement of any kind in anything, which is not realistic at all. Where does passifism stop and hiding you head in the sand start? Everyone must make their own conscious decision on this. You cannot condemn all involvement in the world.