What would happen if we find Noah's ark?

Uphill Battle · Nov 1, 2005

BananaSlug said:
I do yage. I really experience a spiritual journey when taking it. It is however, all in my mind. A trip brought about by mixing Banisteriopsis caapi (a MAOI) with Psychotria viridis (a DMT containing plant). It has been used for thousands of years by Amazonia shamans as a divining tool into the spiritual world.
Normally, DMT ingested orally would simply be broken down by the liver, but with a MAOI, it is a potent hallucinogen. Now this plant which supposedly is revered for its spiritual properties is nothing more than a mixing of two chemicals. This shows that it really has no innate spiritual properties, simply what the natives gave to it.
Christian spiritualism works much the same manner (without the drugs). If you go to a large Christian concert, you can "feel" the peace in the air. Everyone singing and handwaving. Of course, if you were to go to a Buddhist peace concert you would undoubtedly "feel" the same thing. The point is that the belief and peace causes dopamine to be released into the brain, which has a "feel good" effect.

Basically, I'm stating that if you use "personal feelings" (I could feel the Holy Spirit!) as "proof" of your religion, that means other religions have equal proof.

no, I do not feel the same thing at a buddhist gathering as I do when I gather in the name of the Lord. I have been to other religious gatherings, not as to follow them, but to understand where they came from. Mysterious lack of spiritual movement, by my estimation.

I really don't like the inferrence that you make with regards to the drugs either.

nvxplorer · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
It gives you no clues whatsoever. It gives you a perceived justification to dismiss it, because you either don't understand or acknowledge it.

I have nothing to acknowledge. I dont feel the presence of any spirit, Holy or otherwise. As far as dismissing it, I dont believe everything people tell me. You must give me a reason to believe the supernatural exists beyond simply asserting it. No one has been successful at doing this. Billions of believers, hundeds of thousands of scientists, and no one can validate his claim of the supernatural. To me, that is reason enough to reject it. Are there extraordinary unexplained phenomena? Sure. What this indicates is that these phenomena are extraordinary and unexplained. One thing is certain; with the passage of time and the acquisition of knowledge, the list of unexplained phenomena gets smaller. Looking at millennia old scripture, I have to consider the knowledge of the people and the era. If I accept the the supernatural, I have to conclude that knowledge of its existence is inversely proportional to knowledge of nature. I have no reason to think this is the case, and again, this provides clues as to the origin of the supernatural.

Tomk80 · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
I'm merely pointing out that things exist beyond what your scopes, rulers and test tubes can tell you.

What reason do we have to assume that they do. It's a nice assertion, but not more than that.

Uphill Battle · Nov 1, 2005

nvxplorer said:
I have nothing to acknowledge. I dont feel the presence of any spirit, Holy or otherwise. As far as dismissing it, I dont believe everything people tell me. You must give me a reason to believe the supernatural exists beyond simply asserting it. No one has been successful at doing this. Billions of believers, hundeds of thousands of scientists, and no one can validate his claim of the supernatural. To me, that is reason enough to reject it. Are there extraordinary unexplained phenomena? Sure. What this indicates is that these phenomena are extraordinary and unexplained. One thing is certain; with the passage of time and the acquisition of knowledge, the list of unexplained phenomena gets smaller. Looking at millennia old scripture, I have to consider the knowledge of the people and the era. If I accept the the supernatural, I have to conclude that knowledge of its existence is inversely proportional to knowledge of nature. I have no reason to think this is the case, and again, this provides clues as to the origin of the supernatural.

right. We can't prove it to you, because it doesn't fit in a test tube.

Tomk80 · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
no, I do not feel the same thing at a buddhist gathering as I do when I gather in the name of the Lord. I have been to other religious gatherings, not as to follow them, but to understand where they came from. Mysterious lack of spiritual movement, by my estimation.

I really don't like the inferrence that you make with regards to the drugs either.

Why would you feel the same if, by your own admission, your attitude at those gatherings is not the same?

Uphill Battle · Nov 1, 2005

Tomk80 said:
What reason do we have to assume that they do. It's a nice assertion, but not more than that.

none. I didn't say that you DO have reason to assume that their are. That doesn't automatically preclude the assumption that there is NOT.

Tomk80 · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
right. We can't prove it to you, because it doesn't fit in a test tube.

No, you can't prove it because you give no reason that it exists other than your assertions. There's a difference between the two.

nvxplorer · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
Extra-ordinary. Don't mince words to avoid the point.

How am I mincing words? You first used the term. If you dont want a term addressed, dont use it.

BananaSlug · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
no, I do not feel the same thing at a buddhist gathering as I do when I gather in the name of the Lord. I have been to other religious gatherings, not as to follow them, but to understand where they came from.

There you have it. If you were a follower, I'm sure you would have felt much different.

I really don't like the inferrence that you make with regards to the drugs either.

Click to expand...

Well, it's a valid point (many religions around the world utilize mind-influencing plants, did you know that frankencense and myrrh are psychoactive?). Amazonian tribes regard it as a spiritual teacher when all it is is a potent chemical combination. All of the emotions of our body run on drugs; dopamine, serotonin, etc. Everything we feel comes from chemical responses in our brain. In reality, my post had everything to do with the subject.

Click to expand...

Uphill Battle · Nov 1, 2005

Tomk80 said:
Why would you feel the same if, by your own admission, your attitude at those gatherings is not the same?

do you think the Holy Spirit is a feeling? Or at least, that is what it is to me? Sure, if it were just a 'feeling' then I could understand your point.

It's a presence, not a feeling.

and beyond that... it is so often inferred that we invent the Holy Spirit to give us good feelings... The Holy Spirit does not specialize in good feelings.

Uphill Battle · Nov 1, 2005

BananaSlug said:
Uphill Battle said:

no, I do not feel the same thing at a buddhist gathering as I do when I gather in the name of the Lord. I have been to other religious gatherings, not as to follow them, but to understand where they came from.

There you have it. If you were a follower, I'm sure you would have felt much different.

Well, it's a valid point (many religions around the world utilize mind-influencing plants, did you know that frankencense and myrrh are psychoactive?). Amazonian tribes regard it as a spiritual teacher when all it is is a potent chemical combination. All of the emotions of our body run on drugs; dopamine, serotonin, etc. Everything we feel comes from chemical responses in our brain. In reality, my post had everything to do with the subject.

Click to expand...

what I meant was your inferance that believeing in something like the Holy Spirit is on par with taking mind altering drugs.

Click to expand...

Tomk80 · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
do you think the Holy Spirit is a feeling? Or at least, that is what it is to me? Sure, if it were just a 'feeling' then I could understand your point.

It's a presence, not a feeling.

How it 'a presence' different from a 'feeling'?

and beyond that... it is so often inferred that we invent the Holy Spirit to give us good feelings... The Holy Spirit does not specialize in good feelings.

I have not asserted that, nor do I see reason to think that people invent the Holy Spirit to give 'good feelings'.

AirPo · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
It's a presence, not a feeling.

And how do you know it's present?

nvxplorer · Nov 1, 2005

I wish I had a nickel for every instance of the words granny and speck.

nvxplorer · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
I really don't like the inferrence that you make with regards to the drugs either.

Ah, the pitfalls of cultural conditioning.

Marijuana must be evil. After all, its been illegal for 75 out of the 5000 years that it has been used.

Uphill Battle · Nov 1, 2005

AirPo said:
And how do you know it's present?

how do you know that anyone is present? It isn't the same as a mere feeling, it's an awareness of presence.

Uphill Battle · Nov 1, 2005

nvxplorer said:
Ah, the pitfalls of cultural conditioning.

Marijuana must be evil. After all, its been illegal for 75 out of the 5000 years that it has been used.

I didn't say anything about the legality or morality of drugs. I resent the inference that Drug use is on par with belief in the Holy Spirit.

AirPo · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
how do you know that anyone is present? It isn't the same as a mere feeling, it's an awareness of presence.

You see the Holy Spirit?

And-U-Say · Nov 1, 2005

Uphill Battle said:
how do you know that anyone is present? It isn't the same as a mere feeling, it's an awareness of presence.

Exactly! I know when I feel the presence of Zeus, and even more so with Athena. When you feel a presence, that is evidence!

oh... wait...

Uphill Battle · Nov 1, 2005

AirPo said:
You see the Holy Spirit?

I didn't say see. don't twist my words.

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