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Precisely!!!!!!Uphill Battle said:how can scientists, who study only the physical, have an opinion on the matter?
nvxplorer said:Because only the physical can be reliably studied. False ideas and claims can be rejected by studying the physical, while there is no such method to discern the validity of anything supernatural. This is how we function in everyday life. This is how we think. If we appealed to the supernatural, not a single criminal conviction would be possible.
Not true at all. No evidence exists of any such thing. The belief based interpretation of evidences we do have, have simply been misinterpreted, assuning all the way that it will be only a PO future, for example here, and that's why it is commonly taught (even in some schools, believe it or not) that the sun will one day 'burn out'. It won't -ever.BananaSlug said:because all the evidence points to it (so far). If evidence for something other than the "PO" comes along, we'll have to examine it like everything else.
How can creationists, who only study Genesis, have an opinion on the matter of evolution?
Uphill Battle said:error in logic. stating that something becomes less than what it is, because you know about it, is untrue.
What specifically can you tell me about how the little entire universe in a less than dust sized speck hot soup that came out of nowhere, and how, and why? What can you tell me of how and why the so called first lifeform came from non life? What qualifications does anyone have on these things, upon which rest all evolutionary old ageisms? None. Evolution is a faith based system that rests literally on nothing! Now, with the proclamations it's believers, and devotees make based only, I repeat, only, once again here, ONLY present PO observations, about how chrisytians are wrong to believe in a real creation, you ought to look in a mirror here, when asking that!BananaSlug said:What qualifications do YEC's have to make proclamations against evolution?
Amen, preach it, bro.What molecular, paleontological, or biological research have they done?
Really? That is the grand source, and motives, is it? Guess you oughta know.YEC's simply quotemine and use "personal incredulity" arguements against evolution.
No, it doesn't, unless what you find is part of the PO universe. Nothing in the eternal new heavens will be!Name some scientific experiements that falsify evolution. We can't study anything other than the "PO" because once we find something other than the "PO" it becomes part of the "PO."
Wrong. Just because you cook up so called flimsy PO explanations, in a weird attempt to explain away real known, phenomena, doesn't mean those 'explanations' are worth anything, in many if not most cases!There are fields of parapsychology and "ghost hunters." While most things of that nature can be explained with glare, insect reflections, etc. there is still a very small percentage that we cannot explain.
Once your physical only future and past are found and recorded, we can talk seriously about your beliefs. Don't hold your breath, they never will be!But as stated before, once something supernatural is found and recorded beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is no longer "supernatural."
BananaSlug said:Where was there error? I simply stated that once we are able to measure something, it is no longer supernatural. If we were able to measure the spiritual, it would no longer be spiritual, but physical.
Everyone who isnt affected by a serious psychiatric condition. I assume that includes you in we. Some people believe they can fly. I take it that you dont. Some people hear voices. I assume you dont. When I wake up in the morning, I realize that I must go to work if I intend to feed myself. Some may think food will be delivered through prayer or magic. We can imagine an infinite number of alternate realities, but most of us are capable of separating fact from fiction. Claims of God made me do it, or Those stolen goods appeared out of nowhere dont carry any weight in a court of law.Uphill Battle said:I hope when you say WE, you aren't including everyone in that statement.
I cant invalidate the works of Frank Herbert, either. Shall we then treat the characters and events in Dune as historical? Shall we devise a defense against invisible, telepathic Martians for future rover missions? Such beliefs could indeed be real to someone, but if you understand why you would reject such beliefs, you can understand why I reject claims of the supernatural.So then...you can't invalidate supernatural, so it's invalid. that is your basic position on the supernatural. Like I've said before, and was never addressed... it it really true that if it didn't come from a beaker or a focus group, that it isn't real to you? Everything?
The sun is eternal?dad said:Not true at all. No evidence exists of any such thing. The belief based interpretation of evidences we do have, have simply been misinterpreted, assuning all the way that it will be only a PO future, for example here, and that's why it is commonly taught (even in some schools, believe it or not) that the sun will one day 'burn out'. It won't -ever.
nvxplorer said:Everyone who isnt affected by a serious psychiatric condition. I assume that includes you in we. Some people believe they can fly. I take it that you dont. Some people hear voices. I assume you dont. When I wake up in the morning, I realize that I must go to work if I intend to feed myself. Some may think food will be delivered through prayer or magic. We can imagine an infinite number of alternate realities, but most of us are capable of separating fact from fiction. Claims of God made me do it, or Those stolen goods appeared out of nowhere dont carry any weight in a court of law.
I cant invalidate the works of Frank Herbert, either. Shall we then treat the characters and events in Dune as historical? Shall we devise a defense against invisible, telepathic Martians for future rover missions? Such beliefs could indeed be real to someone, but if you understand why you would reject such beliefs, you can understand why I reject claims of the supernatural.
dad said:What specifically can you tell me about how the little entire universe in a less than dust sized speck hot soup that came out of nowhere, and how, and why? What can you tell me of how and why the so called first lifeform came from non life? What qualifications does anyone have on these things, upon which rest all evolutionary old ageisms? None. Evolution is a faith based system that rests literally on nothing! Now, with the proclamations it's believers, and devotees make based only, I repeat, only, once again here, ONLY present PO observations, about how chrisytians are wrong to believe in a real creation, you ought to look in a mirror here, when asking that!
Um, evolution has nothing to do with how life got here. Once it got here, it evolved. It seems that your beef is with abiogenesis. I admit I don't know everything, noone does. But regardless of how life got it, it evolved, is evolving, and will continue to evolve until the sun burns out, Jesus comes back, or Ragnarok happens.
Exactly! This is indeed the supernatural: That which is devised in the mind. What you cannot show is that it is the Holy Spirit working within you. It could be any other named spirit, as well as any imagined spirit or force. Or it could be none of these. If you had no knowledge of the Bible, which itself is a physical entity, you would not think to attribute anything to the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, I can test the effects of gravity with no prior knowledge whatsoever. This gives us a clue as to the origin of supernatural thinking, and the difference between it and observable reality.Uphill Battle said:I can measure within myself, the effect of the Holy Spirit. I can look at what I was, and attribute it to exactly that. It makes it no less supernatural.
Uphill Battle said:I can measure within myself, the effect of the Holy Spirit. I can look at what I was, and attribute it to exactly that. It makes it no less supernatural.
BananaSlug said:How exactly do you measure something within yourself? I'm sure a Hindu can feel the effect of Ganesh within him. I guess they can attribute that to Ganesh and the supernatural.
Scientists don't take measurements on "feelings" (unless they strapped sensors to your head to see what parts of the brain are effected). They use devices and sensors and other means to measure something. Once a scientist can measure a phenomenon and classify it, it is no longer supernatural.
Did you at one time people had a "feeling" that flies spontaneously arose from rotted meat?
nvxplorer said:Exactly! This is indeed the supernatural: That which is devised in the mind. What you cannot show is that it is the Holy Spirit working within you. It could be any other named spirit, as well as any imagined spirit or force. Or it could be none of these. If you had no knowledge of the Bible, which itself is a physical entity, you would not think to attribute anything to the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, I can test the effects of gravity with no prior knowledge whatsoever. This gives us a clue as to the origin of supernatural thinking, and the difference between it and observable reality.
Did you hear about the man who won the Megabucks jackpot for a second time? Extraordinary? You bet. Supernatural? No.Uphill Battle said:sure, I believe in the physical realm. what I do NOT do, is discount the extraordinary.
The authors claim of fiction is irrelevant. If he had claimed otherwise, would you then accept the works as factual? If not, you should understand why I reject the claims of Moses, et. al.And there is a difference in dismissing the works of a man, (who incedentaly, made no claims to the effect) and the works of God (who incedentally, did.) as supernatural.
BananaSlug said:Well, it has something to do with granny bacteria, the first lifeform showing up, and doing the mutation tango, to produce all life on earth! Without the big bang universe in a speck, providing the 'dancefloor' here, ol granny would have had no place for her dance!dad said:Um, evolution has nothing to do with how life got here.
Ha. Guess that explains it all, then.Once it got here, it evolved.
You're on the right track, at least you admit you don't know.It seems that your beef is with abiogenesis. I admit I don't know everything, noone does.
In the physical only world here, the adapting or what some call evolving of God's amazing creations goes on, but at a slow rate. The dates they cook up are resting solidly on this bogus crutch!But regardless of how life got it, it evolved, is evolving, and will continue to evolve
Even when Jesus comes back to absolutely rule the entire world with His believers, with a rod of iron, we may see some adapting as we now do, at least for the thousand year reign. After that, the merged new heavens and earth (merged) are here, and any adapting, if needed, or wanted, would be able again to happen at breakneck speeds!until the sun burns out, Jesus comes back, or Ragnarok happens
Then why do you keep doing it?dad said:This thread isn't the place for empty negative repetitive droning.
nvxplorer said:Did you hear about the man who won the Megabucks jackpot for a second time? Extraordinary? You bet. Supernatural? No.
Reality does not conform to any particular humans epistemological level. What a child may find extraordinary, a teen understands. What confuses a teen is easily reasoned by an adult.
The authors claim of fiction is irrelevant. If he had claimed otherwise, would you then accept the works as factual? If not, you should understand why I reject the claims of Moses, et. al.
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