What Would Falsify the Flood?

[AV1611VET]

If you are saying that the flood and the construction of the ark is a miracle, then you pretty much agree that the flood hypothesis cannot be falsified and thus cannot be proven through the scientific method.

Let me put it in easier terms:

Science can take a hike.

 

[AV1611VET]

So you don't have anything.

That is correct.

I don't have anything in the way of physical evidence -- thank God.

 

[AV1611VET]

Indeed; in the supernatural world everything is possible, but we are not in a supernatural world; are we now!

It's called the "Kingdom of Heaven."

 

[OllieFranz]

I don't think God was bound by any laws.

That's why they're called "miracles."

I know. One takes miracles by faith despite what science claims. That's why I don't even try to argue against someone who is arguing his faith. This was in response to someone who was trying to use (bad) science to make his point and got the point exactly backward.

If one chooses to live by the law, then he shall be judged by the law. Or in this case, the laws of nature as discovered by science.

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you know that "pitch" can also refer to THIS STUFF?

So?

As was pointed out to you in the thread you linked to.

So?

As that was pointed out to you more than six years ago, I assume that you've done the intellectually honest thing and studied the issue and concluded that only the pitch pine could work in this particular case.

So?

Please enlighten me as to how you reached this conclusion.

Gladly.

First of all, assuming the Ark was built in Mesopotamia is a ploy of those who think the Flood was just a local one. They want to believe the Ark just bobbed around in circles, then was let down in the mountains.

Noah living thousand of miles away, however, pwns that idea.

Second of all, man was supposed to spread out from Eden, not just hang around in the same general area ... and although I believe the Garden of Eden was in China, not Mesopotamia, it still lends credence to the fact that Noah should not be living anywhere near where Adam and Eve once lived.

Thirdly, I've made it clear that this is what I believe. If you don't believe it, that's your prerogative.

Or are you cherry picking stuff in order to validate your beliefs?

I'm cherry picking stuff in order to validate my belief.

Let me ask you this:

Where do you think Noah lived?

 

[mzungu]

As I said: Miracles/Science = Confusion.

You're not new here, mzungu.

QV please (and note the date): 174

What next AV; Moses was given the ten commandments on mount Rushmore

 

[AV1611VET]

What next AV; Moses was given the ten commandments on mount Rushmore

Where do you think Noah lived?

 

[Kylie]

So?

So you have no reason to conclude "pitch" must refer to the pitch pine. That makes your conclusion that Noah lived in America unreasonable.

So?

So you ignore perfectly valid and more likely options to maintain your belief. Denying reality and logic in order to maintain a poorly supported belief is not a reasonable thing to do, is it?

So?

So either you've managed to conclude that it could only have been the pitch pine based on an examination of the evidence or you just dismiss things you don't want to think about. Somehow, I get the feeling it's the latter.

Gladly.

First of all, assuming the Ark was built in Mesopotamia is a ploy of those who think the Flood was just a local one. They want to believe the Ark just bobbed around in circles, then was let down in the mountains.

Noah living thousand of miles away, however, pwns that idea.

So, reason number 1 is wishful thinking.

Second of all, man was supposed to spread out from Eden, not just hang around in the same general area ... and although I believe the Garden of Eden was in China, not Mesopotamia, it still lends credence to the fact that Noah should not be living anywhere near where Adam and Eve once lived.

More wishful thinking.

Thirdly, I've made it clear that this is what I believe. If you don't believe it, that's your prerogative.

So you believe it because you believe it.

Honestly, that would be like me saying that I believe that I am a millionaire for three reasons. Firstly, Mr Smith my old teacher said I'd never amount to anything and it would be really neat if I turned out to be a millionaire. Secondly, me being a millionaire would remove the worries I have about the bills and rent. Thirdly, I believe I'm a millionaire and I'm not shy about telling people that I believe it.

Doesn't make me a millionaire though, does it?

I'm cherry picking stuff in order to validate my belief.

And ignoring reality while you're at it. Reality's a pretty difficult thing to do without, AV1611VET.

Let me ask you this:

Where do you think Noah lived?

Where do you think Frodo Baggins lived?

 

[mzungu]

Where do you think Noah lived?

Considering that the flood was a Babylonian myth then suffice it to say he lived in Mesopotamia.

Excerpt from wiki: The Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, composed about 2500 BC, contains a flood story almost exactly the same as the Noah story in the Pentateuch, with a few variations such as the number of days of the deluge, the order of the birds, and the name of the mountain on which the ark rests. Andrew R. George submits that the flood story in Genesis 6–8 matches the Gilgamesh flood myth so closely, "few doubt" that it derives from a Mesopotamian account.[8] What is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the story permits other alternatives.[9]

 

[AV1611VET]

Considering that the flood was a Babylonian myth then suffice it to say he lived in Mesopotamia.

Two things:

1. If it is a myth, then what does it matter where someone thinks Noah lived? North Pole? Greece? Guam? Mesopotamia? New Zealand? Why do you feel the need to reply to my belief with sarcasm about Mt. Rushmore?

2. Do you not realize that your belief is just as repugnant to me as mine is to yours? Again, is the mature thing for me to do is reply to your belief with sarcasm?

Of course, it's your prerogative, and the Bible even says you will do it; but I hope you see where I'm coming from.

 

[EternalDragon]

That's the point, the ship is too large to hold together with an all-wooden frame. We also know when the Iron Age started, and it was long after the era that Noah was said to have lived... The early Roman Empire was up and running before we mastered ironworking.



This is no ordinary rainfall. Remember, this is enough rain to cover Mount Everest in 40 days. Mount Everest is roughly 30,000 feet tall.

So that means that there would be 750 feet of water a day dumped on every square inch of the earth, or 32 feet of water per hour added to the boat, or a little over a half a foot of water per minute throughout the entire hull.

Nothing is going to be able to bail that much water out, it wouldn't have even begun to float when the rain started, much less had the ability to stay afloat.

You do not know that Mount Everest was there at that time, at that height. You are assuming current conditions.

You are also assuming an open deck which the Ark did not have. The way in was in the side of the ship. It was also made of gopher wood. Do you know what that is?

 

[Black Akuma]

You do not know that Mount Everest was there at that time, at that height. You are assuming current conditions.

You're right, it wasn't at that height at that time. It was probably a few feet lower, since it's been growing at a steady rate of about 2 or so inches a year.

If you think it grew at a different rate in the past, you need to present some solid evidence to support that and show how whatever this mechanism is could work in a way that doesn't violate everything we know about geology. Otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to think it was drastically lower than we would expect it to be at the time.

Do you know what that is?

Do you?

 

[mzungu]

Two things:

1. If it is a myth, then what does it matter where someone thinks Noah lived? North Pole? Greece? Guam? Mesopotamia? New Zealand? Why do you feel the need to reply to my belief with sarcasm about Mt. Rushmore?

2. Do you not realize that your belief is just as repugnant to me as mine is to yours? Again, is the mature thing for me to do is reply to your belief with sarcasm?

Of course, it's your prerogative, and the Bible even says you will do it; but I hope you see where I'm coming from.

Your beliefs are not repugnant to me. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not question your beliefs; I do however question the fact that since you take the Bible literally then you are bound to its literal interpretation and not your personal one. After all Jesus did say: "No scripture is open to personal interpretation".

I had no idea that my beliefs disturbed you so

 

[OllieFranz]

Where do you think Noah lived?

Either in the Mediterranean Basin before the "fountains of the deep" at Gibralter gave way and the waters of the Atlantic ocean flooded the land, forming the Mediterranean Sea, or (more likely) in the Black Sea Basin before the "fountains of the deep" at the Bosporus similarly gave way, In either case, the waters of the Flood are still there and Noah's homeland is still under those waters.

But that is speculation, no more certain than your New Jersey guess.

 

[EternalDragon]

You're right, it wasn't at that height at that time. It was probably a few feet lower, since it's been growing at a steady rate of about 2 or so inches a year.

If you think it grew at a different rate in the past, you need to present some solid evidence to support that and show how whatever this mechanism is could work in a way that doesn't violate everything we know about geology. Otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to think it was drastically lower than we would expect it to be at the time.

Do you know why it is growing at only 2 inches per year? Is there a reason that it has to be at that rate at all times?

Do you?

That's the point. There are things we don't know. There were also not as many animals on board as you imagine.

Modern marine architects have determined that the Ark of Noah was the single most stable floating object ever conceived.

 

[freezerman2000]

You do not know that Mount Everest was there at that time, at that height. You are assuming current conditions.

You are also assuming an open deck which the Ark did not have. The way in was in the side of the ship. It was also made of gopher wood. Do you know what that is?

I don't recall the verse stating what kind of wood God told Noah to use?

 

[mzungu]

Modern marine architects have determined that the Ark of Noah was the single most stable floating object ever conceived.

Source please! Stop playing make believe. We are tired of it!

 

[Black Akuma]

Is there a reason that it has to be at that rate at all times?

If you believe there was ever a time when it grew at a different rate, the onus is on you to show it. Otherwise, there's no reason to consider it. It's never been shown to vary to any considerable degree, certainly not in the way you're suggesting.

Modern marine architects have determined that the Ark of Noah was the single most stable floating object ever conceived.

How incredibly vague.

Who are these 'modern marine architects', and how did they determine such a thing?

 

[AV1611VET]

Your beliefs are not repugnant to me.

Whatever.

I didn't know what word to use, so I picked one with wide connotations.

Perhaps you misunderstood me.

I'd say you were clear enough.

I do not question your beliefs;

Did I say you did?

I do however question the fact that since you take the Bible literally then you are bound to its literal interpretation and not your personal one.

And where in the Bible does it even hint at where Noah lived before the Flood?

If the Bible said Noah lived in the land of Uz, then I would be bound to believe that Noah lived in the land of Uz.

But where the Bible is silent, I don't think it is a sin to speculate.

And I'm not just pulling a place out of a hat, I'm making what I think is an educated guess, supported in part with Wikipedia.

After all Jesus did say: "No scripture is open to personal interpretation".

Then why did you say "Mesopotamia"?

Because the Babylonians said it?

Aren't they disobeying the Scriptures as well?

I had no idea that my beliefs disturbed you so.

Your sarcasm caught me off-guard.

I would have expected that from most others, but not you.

But as I said, however, the Bible says you will, and I didn't heed the Bible; did I?

 

[AV1611VET]

Either in the Mediterranean Basin before the "fountains of the deep" at Gibralter gave way and the waters of the Atlantic ocean flooded the land, forming the Mediterranean Sea, or (more likely) in the Black Sea Basin before the "fountains of the deep" at the Bosporus similarly gave way, In either case, the waters of the Flood are still there and Noah's homeland is still under those waters.

But that is speculation, no more certain than your New Jersey guess.

Fair enough.

Thank you for an honest answer.