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What would falsify creationism?

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DogmaHunter

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And they are. Some of them were even found by prediction of location, like that one fossil from the whale lineage. Don't exactly remember which one it was... it was found in Pakistan, in any case.

Some examples:







etc etc

Not to mention the genetic record, where this is simply confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt.


Gish gallop and misinformation, which is already exposed by the 3 pictures above.

Conclusion, the fossil record does not look at all like Evolution

False. It looks exactly like what we would expect if evolution happened.


but it does resemble special creation: i.e. sudden appearance of each Kind of creature followed by stasis (no bodily change in physical form) for its' duration in the fossil record.

Newsflash: a fossil is the remnant of an individual of a certain population.
Shocker: that individual belonged to a species that roamed the planet for a certain amount of time.

What did you expect otherwise? Crockoducks?
 
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DogmaHunter

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What experiments can we do to support past events?
We can only guess what may have happened.
Yes, faith can override guesses or estimates or imaginings.

Then no criminal could ever be convicted for a crime that had no eye witnesses.
All the criminal has to do is maintain that he is innocent.

That's your logic.
 
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DogmaHunter

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like each parent.
That part of evolution I can test. Going backward.....very little.

So, you are of the opinion that we can't subject you to a DNA test to see if your parents are your actual biological parents?
 
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DogmaHunter

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No, there is no logic - that is the entire point.
There is only a logical fallacy: that of special pleading.

The "first cause" argument is based on the premises "something can't come from nothing" and that "everything must have a cause".

As soon as we get to the "proposed cause" of the universe and the question is raised "what caused this cause?" the special pleading kicks in: "ow, but this thing doesn't require a cause!!"

So the proposed "cause" by this argument violates its own premises.
And it does so through special pleading.

If your god can exist without a cause, then so can other things. Including the universe.



Also, as a side note, this is not the only way that the "first cause" argument completely fails.

1. it's also an argument from ignorance: "science doesn't know, therefor god"
2. it is not enough to merely declare a causal chain to exist from A to B. One must actually demonstrate the causal chain - not merely assert it.

Good luck with that.
 
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asherahSamaria

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Actually "No one knows" is the only truthful answer there is.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Evidently some aren't interested in where He is now.

They need to know where He came from.

It's basic physics.
God created basic physics. He is greater then the universe. He is not a part of time. People can not even understand the universe we are in, how are they going to understand what is greater then the universe. God has no start or finish, no beginning or end. He has always existed and He will always exist.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The "first cause" argument is based on the premises "something can't come from nothing" and that "everything must have a cause".
Are you really trying to argue that there is no difference between a cause and a effect? Can you show me that one in the text book or is this just more speculation on your part.
 
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asherahSamaria

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This is a text book case of special pleading. It really translates to I want to believe in some supernatural entity for which there is no evidence and I admit I couldn't even understand it if there were and it can't have a beginning because then it wouldn't be special and I wouldn't have a first cause argument even though I have basically just replaced one mystery with an even bigger mystery just to satisfy my need to have this special supernatural entity that I really really want to believe in.
 
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Larniavc

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Wow ... just wow.I thought the "logic" behind it is that you can't have effects without causes, therefore God is our "first cause"?

This is special pleading. You apparently are saying that your god has no cause. If the only thing that does not have a cause is your god, then that is special pleading.
 
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Loudmouth

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I was invited by someone to reply here. I accepted the request. I also found here per chance, Loudmouth, whom I like personally, though we disagree on the evidences of Creation Vs. Evolution. I do have a strong science background.

In this thread, we are discussing creationism, not evolution. Specifically, we are asking the question of what would falsify creationism, the types of observations that would be inconsistent with creationism.
 
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Loudmouth

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Then what would not be creationism?

Is the Germ Theory of Disease also creationism because it explains how God creates infections? Is the Atom Theory of Matter also creationism because it explains how God makes larger molecules? Is the Theory of Supernova Nucleosynthesis as an explanation for heavy elements also creationism because it explains how God creates elements heavier than iron?

Also . . .

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."--Bertrand Russell

It isn't up to us to disprove claims that have no evidence.
 
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Larniavc

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Are you really trying to argue that there is no difference between a cause and a effect? Can you show me that one in the text book or is this just more speculation on your part.

No. That is not what is trying to be argued. What a beautifully dressed strawman you have presented.

I hope that clears that confusion for you.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Are you really trying to argue that there is no difference between a cause and a effect?

Where have I claimed that?

Can you show me that one in the text book or is this just more speculation on your part.

I simply never said that there is no difference between cause and effect.

In fact, the very difference between cause and effect actually is another reason why this argument is not sensible.

Because you see, causes preceed effects. Effects happen after causes.
Causality thus requires a temporal framework. It requires time to exist.
Because causality is a sequential chain of events and thus a series of events happening one after the other.

No time dimension = no causality.
No universe = no causality.

So what the "first cause" / kalaam argument does, is try to employ an intrinsic property OF the universe, an aspect of physics as it applies IN the universe, and pretends that this phenomen of the universe also applies when there is no universe.

There's a chicken and egg problem there.
You require Time (capital 't') to exist for the phenomena of causality to apply.
But you try to apply causality to a context where Time doesn't exist.

It makes no sense.
 
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AV1611VET

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Good luck with that.
Whether you call it "special pleading," or I call it "logic," it still doesn't mean we are a minority -- which is the point I'm addressing.

Belief in Humpty Dumpty might constitute a minority -- but belief in "God" does not.

And special pleading is an appeal to give a particular interest group special treatment.
 
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AV1611VET

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Actually "No one knows" is the only truthful answer there is.
Says you.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
 
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AV1611VET

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This is special pleading. You apparently are saying that your god has no cause. If the only thing that does not have a cause is your god, then that is special pleading.
Let's bottom-line this shall we?

Where did the universe come from?

Can you answer that without employing special pleading?
 
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Larniavc

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Let's bottom-line this shall we?

Where did the universe come from?

Can you answer that without employing special pleading?

Yes. I can answer that without special pleading: I don't know.

Can YOU answer that question without special pleading?
 
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SkyWriting

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