What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

[znr]

Hey Jesse, good to see you.

Good question.

 

[Jesse2014]

Hey Jesse, good to see you.

You too. And thank you

 

[Ana the Ist]

My point is that God did communicate with mankind in the form of Jesus, but not everyone believed. If God sent down an audible voice, and, for example, Ken heard it and recognized it as God's voice, would you also recognize it as God's voice? So my point is, God does speak to mankind, but not everyone listens. Should God yell at mankind in a booming voice? And would all people then understand? I understand Ken's question, but I'm just saying that God does speak, just not in a booming voice that all people can understand simultaneously. Actually God claims to speak in a still small voice. But back to Ken's question, incidentally, God will be speaking in a booming voice one day. The question is, will it be too late? Just something to ponder.

That's a bit unfair....

Every atheist I know has evidence they would accept. This implication that we get it and yet ignore it isn't exactly fair. We don't get it...i know I haven't gotten any...I doubt the other atheists here have either.

Let's examine your side for a moment. Let's say you had the ultimate proof. Let's say god appeared before, undeniably, and told you that every time you "felt" him...it wasn't him, it was just you. Let's say every time you thought you saw Jesus it was your imagination. Let's say he says this is the first time he ever communicated with you and he wants to know christianity... in fact...everything you believe about him is all wrong.

Would you change your beliefs?

 

[znr]

If after I hit submit time ran out, then I agree it would be unfair. Unless we have knowledge from people who have died, firsthand communication between specific dead people and us, we don't really know what the final outcome is; we'd have to assume the dead know what happened next. I personally don't believe God is going to give anyone a bum rap; I believe God longs for reconciliation between mankind and himself; and the when part is between a person and God. My father was an atheist, as you know. But I don't expect not to see him again on the grounds he didn't believe because i have no way to know the final outcome. My opinion is that God is patient and long suffering. He's not trying to keep people out. As I see it he's working overtime to reconnect with mankind, more than is obvious.

So, in your hypothetical, God tells me I'm imagining things? That would suck. I see what you're aiming for here, but I'm not saying that God isn't compassionate toward those who haven't yet believed, so it's not unfair. Your life isn't over yet.

That's a bit unfair....

Every atheist I know has evidence they would accept. This implication that we get it and yet ignore it isn't exactly fair. We don't get it...i know I haven't gotten any...I doubt the other atheists here have either.

Let's examine your side for a moment. Let's say you had the ultimate proof. Let's say god appeared before, undeniably, and told you that every time you "felt" him...it wasn't him, it was just you. Let's say every time you thought you saw Jesus it was your imagination. Let's say he says this is the first time he ever communicated with you and he wants to know christianity... in fact...everything you believe about him is all wrong.

Would you change your beliefs?

 

[Ana the Ist]

If after I hit submit time ran out, then I agree it would be unfair. Unless we have knowledge from people who have died, firsthand communication between specific dead people and us, we don't really know what the final outcome is; we'd have to assume the dead know what happened next. I personally don't believe God is going to give anyone a bum rap; I believe God longs for reconciliation between mankind and himself; and the when part is between a person and God. My father was an atheist, as you know. But I don't expect not to see him again on the grounds he didn't believe because i have no way to know the final outcome. My opinion is that God is patient and long suffering. He's not trying to keep people out. As I see it he's working overtime to reconnect with mankind, more than is obvious.

So, in your hypothetical, God tells me I'm imagining things? That would suck. I see what you're aiming for here, but I'm not saying that God isn't compassionate toward those who haven't yet believed, so it's not unfair. Your life isn't over yet.

So you would or wouldn't change your beliefs?

And thanks z....i still think there's time for you too.

 

[znr]

In your hypothetical, it's the atheist perspective being presented. In my perspective (which you may call my own hypothetical) God states up front who he is and doesn't change. So I wouldn't be interested in changing my beliefs. I would either think 1) I'm crazy or 2) someone is lying

(in my best Church Lady voice: could it be sssatan!?) okay, sorry; I needed to amuse myself, I'm tired.

So you would or wouldn't change your beliefs?

And thanks z....i still think there's time for you too.

 

[Ana the Ist]

In your hypothetical, it's the atheist perspective being presented. In my perspective (which you may call my own hypothetical) God states up front who he is and doesn't change. So I wouldn't be interested in changing my beliefs. I would either think 1) I'm crazy or 2) someone is lying

(in my best Church Lady voice: could it be sssatan!?) okay, sorry; I needed to amuse myself, I'm tired.

Gotcha...

Basically no evidence that contradicts your current beliefs is acceptable.... only evidence that you'll consider is that which verifies what you already believe.

So when you consider that pretty much any atheist has evidence that would change his mind....and none can change yours....it's not the atheists who are going around ignoring evidence, is it?

 

[Freodin]

Well, God did send a voice from the sky in the form of a man, but still some people rejected it.

I hope you do see the problem with this assertion.

Even if we concede that God send a voice in the form of a man - Jesus - it is not that "some people rejected it"... but that "most people didn't get to hear that voice."

So I'm thinking that even if God bellowed from the sky some people might reject that too. Or just write it off as delusional. Not saying you would reject it, but some would.

That bellowing voice from the sky - rejected or nor - would at least have been heard.

On the other hand, I have never heard the "voice from the sky in the form of a man". Not even the majority of people alive 2000 years ago did.

 

[Ken-1122]

Well, God did send a voice from the sky in the form of a man, but still some people rejected it. So I'm thinking that even if God bellowed from the sky some people might reject that too. Or just write it off as delusional. Not saying you would reject it, but some would.

I said a voice comming out of the sky! Not some guy going around claiming to speak for God without any proof, amist the thousands of others claiming to speak for God without proof!

A voice from the sky would be credible evidence and CNN, ABC, CBS, Fox News, and a pelethora of other media networks would record the event and provide an eternal record of the event that could never be denyed by any rational person. Some guy amongst thousands of others claiming to speak for the real God is gonna have a bit of a credibility issue.

Ken

 

[prov1810]

A voice from the sky would be credible evidence and CNN, ABC, CBS, Fox News, and a pelethora of other media networks would record the event and provide an eternal record of the event that could never be denyed by any rational person.

Skeptics would say that the voice might not be God. It might be an alien civilization getting their jollies.

 

[bhsmte]

MacBeth and King Duncan are discussing the politics of Scotland when an eccentric prophet-like figure barges into the room.

"There is a Shakespeare!" he says.

"What's a Shakespeare?" replies MacBeth.

"What's a Shakespeare?! Shakespeare is the creator of our world. He's responsible for everything that we are and see. He's the author of life. He created us and sustains our existence. We owe everything to him!" the prophet says.

MacBeth and Duncan smile at one another and look around the room.

"I don't see any Shakespeares." says Duncan. "Where is this Shakespeare?"

"He spoke to me. He sent me. I come from him and will return to him. I've come with a message!" says the prophet.

"Anyone can make such a claim. What evidence do you have for his existence. What evidence do you have that he sent you?" asks MacBeth.

"The whole world is evidence of his existence!" replies the prophet...

***

When we ask for evidence for something that's within creation we all know the kinds of things we're looking for. We're looking for tangible, physical evidence. Different claims require different sorts of evidence.

"I am your father." What evidence is required of this claim? DNA testing, photographs, common memories, etc...

"It rained this afternoon." What evidence is required here? Wet cement, video footage or pictures, personal testimony, etc...

But God is the creator. If He exists he is in an entirely different category from everything else. He alone is creator, everything else is creation. He is unique. What would evidence for the existence of God be like? It's too simplistic to ask for the sort of physical evidence that applies to claims like the two mentioned above. If God exists the whole world is, indeed, evidence of his existence. But certainly more can be said.

What light does the MacBeth parable shed on the sorts of evidence we're looking for when we're looking for evidence of God's existence? What would evidence of God's existence even be like?

If God exists as you put it, is the key question.

Right now, it takes faith and likely a certain psychological need to believe he exists, because there is no objective evidence he does exist.

There are people who swear up and down they were abducted by aliens and even pass lie detector tests and tell a consistent story under hypnosis that their experience was real. Do you believe them? Do most people believe them? I highly doubt it.

What evidence would be required for most to believe people were physically abducted by aliens? Whatever the answer to that question is, would likely relate to evidence most who don't believe, would want to believe a God exists.

 

[Ken-1122]

My point is that God did communicate with mankind in the form of Jesus, but not everyone believed.

Yeah there was a credibility problem with Jesus. But if a voice came out of the sky during that time, and was spoken in a way all languages understood, and all people heard at the same time; things would have been much different.

If God sent down an audible voice, and, for example, Ken heard it and recognized it as God's voice, would you also recognize it as God's voice?

If today such an audible voice came from the sky and everybody on Earth heard it at the same time; and all of the different languages understood it, this miracle would be confirmed by various military planes all over the world to confirm it isn't a hoax, it would be recorded by modern media equipment; and it would only be denyed by those considered crazy; sorta like those holocaust denyers.

So my point is, God does speak to mankind, but not everyone listens. Should God yell at mankind in a booming voice?

Only crazy people wouldn't listen; the vast majority of the population would.

I'm just saying that God does speak, just not in a booming voice that all people can understand simultaneously.

Why not? You gotta admit; it would be a heck of a lot more effective than what he has going on right now! (which isn't very effective)

But back to Ken's question, incidentally, God will be speaking in a booming voice one day. The question is, will it be too late? Just something to ponder.

So he will speak in a booming voice someday? Obviously he knows the effectivness of a booming voice, so why doesn't he do it now before it is too late?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Skeptics would say that the voice might not be God. It might be an alien civilization getting their jollies.

True! People would still have the freewill/choice to accept or reject a voice coming from the sky. But at least they will have a choice! What about those who didn't know about or have access to Jesus? What kind of choice did they have?

Ken

 

[prov1810]

True! People would still have the freewill/choice to accept or reject a voice coming from the sky. But at least they will have a choice! What about those who didn't know about or have access to Jesus? What kind of choice did they have?

Ken

We are all responsible for what we know. Our consciences tell us that our sins are destructive of our own peace of mind and our relationships with others. And because we did not create ourselves, we are damaging the life given to us by another.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We are all responsible for what we know. Our consciences tell us that our sins are destructive of our own peace of mind and our relationships with others. And because we did not create ourselves, we are damaging the life given to us by another.

I'm going to assume you can't magically read minds the way you're pretending to in your post there.

 

[prov1810]

I'm going to assume you can't magically read minds the way you're pretending to in your post there.

Sometimes, we stress ourselves out and we test the patience of other people. No, that's not a supernatural insight. That's just an extremely obvious fact.

 

[bhsmte]

Sometimes, we stress ourselves out and we test the patience of other people. No, that's not a supernatural insight. That's just an extremely obvious fact.

It may be a fact to you, but not to others.

 

[prov1810]

It may be a fact to you, but not to others.

I love it when atheists proclaim themselves immune to the human condition, as if they've possessed Buddha-like equanimity since birth. Yeah, sure.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I love it when atheists proclaim themselves immune to the human condition, as if they've possessed Buddha-like equanimity since birth. Yeah, sure.

I love when believers think they understand the human condition because they read about it in a 2000 yo book.

What if I just told you I don't "feel" like I "sin" at all? Would you tell me I'm wrong lol?

 

[prov1810]

And I would be remiss if I didn't mention atheism's unique contribution to philosophy - the notion of a causal chain without a first cause. Not a logical contribution, but thank you for playing. No one ever reasoned themselves into atheism.