What would be sufficent evidence to prove that the super natural exist?

[PsychoSarah]

I think Christians should get their miracles verified by doctors, so that it could help people believe in at least the supernatural. With all the claims I hear about people getting healed there should be some people who have gotten them medically verified.

Well, anyone who was missing a limb would have medical records of that, so them having it grow back would have previous proof that the limb was missing before. That is all the verification you would really need. No medical procedure that I am aware of in which people can receive limbs from other people (and I doubt it would lack scars).

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think Christians should get their miracles verified by doctors, so that it could help people believe in at least the supernatural. With all the claims I hear about people getting healed there should be some people who have gotten them medically verified.

I've heard of attempts to verify such things by third party sources. From what I remember, verification hasn't actually occurred yet...meaning that literally every investigatable claim has been explainable by natural causes.

Here's an interesting link...

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html

 

[tacdon]

I've heard of attempts to verify such things by third party sources. From what I remember, verification hasn't actually occurred yet...meaning that literally every investigatable claim has been explainable by natural causes.

Here's an interesting link...

Some Thoughts about Faith Healing

I think it would take a great deal of effort to find verified miracles by doctors, because I would imagine a person would want to see copies of the records and see them in person, that would take having them mailed.

Healing miracles and God

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think it would take a great deal of effort to find verified miracles by doctors, because I would imagine a person would want to see copies of the records and see them in person, that would take having them mailed.

Healing miracles and God

You know, obviously I'm not going to investigate every one of those cases...but I did look at the first one because it seemed to defy logic. I went to his website and looked at his story and medical "evidence". I'm no doctor...so I could be wrong...but every ekg he displays shows his heart working, albeit poorly, but still pumping blood...the entire time.

That would easily.explain what happened to him.

Do the research yourself...compare his ekg with another "flatline" ekg...the pictures of flatlines I saw don't have little rises in them.

 

[tacdon]

You know, obviously I'm not going to investigate every one of those cases...but I did look at the first one because it seemed to defy logic. I went to his website and looked at his story and medical "evidence". I'm no doctor...so I could be wrong...but every ekg he displays shows his heart working, albeit poorly, but still pumping blood...the entire time.

That would easily.explain what happened to him.

Do the research yourself...compare his ekg with another "flatline" ekg...the pictures of flatlines I saw don't have little rises in them.

The website gave different resources to look at if someone cares enough to look through them. I guess it depends how important it is to someone. Who knows maybe one of the resources would have something that you consider to be a verified miracle, maybe so, maybe not.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The website gave different resources to look at if someone cares enough to look through them. I guess it depends how important it is to someone. Who knows maybe one of the resources would have something that you consider to be a verified miracle, maybe so, maybe not.

Which website? The Sean George one or the one you linked?

I mean seriously...do your own research. Look at his ekgs and tell me if any of them look like this...

http://www.cardiachealth.org/asystole-and-pulseless-electrical-activity

Again, I'm no doctor, but even I can see a huge difference here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Frankly, the story doesn't exactly sound right either. The man was "dead" for 30+ minutes and they kept trying to revive him? Probably not. They told his wife, "Sorry...your husband has been dead for nearly an hour now." and she starts asking god for a miracle? She didn't pray the whole drive there?

If they knew he was 30-40 mins + past the point of revival, why were they still working on him?

My guess is that this man had a close call and has exaggerated his situation for dramatic effect. At best. At worst, he's outright lying.

 

[tacdon]

Frankly, the story doesn't exactly sound right either. The man was "dead" for 30+ minutes and they kept trying to revive him? Probably not. They told his wife, "Sorry...your husband has been dead for nearly an hour now." and she starts asking god for a miracle? She didn't pray the whole drive there?

If they knew he was 30-40 mins + past the point of revival, why were they still working on him?

My guess is that this man had a close call and has exaggerated his situation for dramatic effect. At best. At worst, he's outright lying.

If you don't like that story, there are more stories to look at.

http://www.is-there-a-god.info/clues/healing-miracles.shtml

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you don't like that story, there are more stories to look at.

Healing miracles and God

I'll gladly look at any other stories...but first I'd like you to address the point I'm making.

It doesn't have anything to do with liking a story or not...I looked at it, examined what little evidence there is, and it came up really really short as far as miracles go.

You have eyes, what did you see? Still a miracle...or not?

 

[quatona]

People have different definitions of what supernatural is. Whatever floats their boat let that be their supernatural definition for this question.

Well, a working epistemology and method of falsification/verification depends on the definition.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Would ten verified medical miracles be enough or would you need 1,000 verified medical miracles?

Medical "miracles" just amount to arguments from ignorance... we can't explain it with current knowledge, therefore supernatural forces.

I would need something far beyond witch-doctor reasoning. I'd need to know that there was a category of existence other than the physical reality we know through our senses, and I'd have to know that this category of existence has some special control over physical reality that doesn't depend on physical causality. This cannot be done with medical claims. You'd need something far more interesting.

I don't know if any of that can be verified on a purely scientific basis, and I really don't care. I have ceased caring about that long ago. This might not sound fair, but I'm just not interested in finding ways to give voodoo a chance.

Incidentally, I'm just speaking for myself here. I don't pretend to speak for all atheists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[durangodawood]

What would be sufficent evidence to prove that the super natural exist?

For me, merely the evidence of my own intuition.

So far, there's not enough of that to approach "proof" by a long way.

 

[Paradoxum]

I'd believe in God if he regularly appear to multiple people at once, including me. If He acted like a Father and friend, like he's supposed to.

But this isn't something that happens. So I don't see why I should believe in an omnipotent God that loves me.

Would ten verified medical miracles be enough or would you need 1,000 verified medical miracles?

What evidence would you need?

What is a verified medical miracle? I don't know how you could verify such a thing.

Seeing someone pray for another, and seeing their amputated leg grow back in front of me, would be a good start. That could still be some kind of trickery, but it would make me wonder.

 

[tacdon]

I'd believe in God if he regularly appear to multiple people at once, including me. If He acted like a Father and friend, like he's supposed to.

But this isn't something that happens. So I don't see why I should believe in an omnipotent God that loves me.



What is a verified medical miracle? I don't know how you could verify such a thing.

Seeing someone pray for another, and seeing their amputated leg grow back in front of me, would be a good start. That could still be some kind of trickery, but it would make me wonder.

It sounds like you would consider nothing to be a miracle then.

Do you know anyone who is sick or handicapped? If that person was prayed for and wasn't sick or handicapped anymore would you believe it was a miracle?

 

[PsychoSarah]

It sounds like you would consider nothing to be a miracle then.

Do you know anyone who is sick or handicapped? If that person was prayed for and wasn't sick or handicapped anymore would you believe it was a miracle?

That would depend on exactly how they were healed. A new medical treatment doesn't count as a "miracle".

 

[tacdon]

That would depend on exactly how they were healed. A new medical treatment doesn't count as a "miracle".

They were healed without any new medical treatment.

 

[Emjay1985]

If a true miracle happened it would be explained away. Jesus himself appears to a church = a mass delusion caused by religious hysteria. Someone dies and is declared dead by a medical examiner but comes back to life in the morgue the next day = lazarus syndrome.

 

[tacdon]

If a true miracle happened it would be explained away. Jesus himself appears to a church = a mass delusion caused by religious hysteria. Someone dies and is declared dead by a medical examiner but comes back to life in the morgue the next day = lazarus syndrome.

You're probably right about many on here being that way, but I believe some might be willing to call something a miracle.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Would ten verified medical miracles be enough or would you need 1,000 verified medical miracles?

What evidence would you need?

I know you asked non-believers what evidence they would need to believe in God, but have you considered what is written about unbelievers in Romans 1:18-23? Please know that I am sincerely asking you this question. I'm not trying to argue with you or with anyone else in your thread.

 

[Emjay1985]

I believe some might be willing to call something a miracle.

I believe miracles happen today even though they aren't biblical type miracles; pillars of smoke, columns of fire, seas parting so thousands of people can walk through on dry ground. Even biblical miracles would be explained away. Even if an amputated limb grew back right in front of somebody else's eyes people would try to find a scientific explanation.