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What will become of the Jesuits?

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PeterPaul

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One wonders in today's age how the SSPX are considered schismatic and the Jesuits are not. Considering the volume of apostacy to come from their apostolate and the souls they have led astray from the Barque of Peter one can not hesitate to say that this once golden society with the great St. Ignatius of Loyola has done more to harm Catholics in their care in recent history than any SSPX member ever could.

Certainly for those not familiar, the Jesuits closing shop is not new. In history they had been disassociated from the Holy See (unjustly at that time) only to return at the request of the contemporary pope. They had been barred in many nations over the centuries (not for heterodoxy but the opposite) and one wonders if the Church needs to distance Herself from them today.

Any thoughts?
 

Markh

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Fr Mitch Pacwa is a decent Jesuit.

But as we all know, the few young men who want to become priests want to be part of Orthodox movements not liberal ones. If the Jesuits don't change their ways they will go the same way as all those liberal nuns and the vocations will be fulfilled in new, Orthodox movements.

It is a shame if this happens, especially considering the acheivements of St Ignatius and the early Jesuits in Asia.
 
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lonnienord

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Fr. Mitch is a great Jesuit! The President of Gonzaga University (Spokane, Washington USA) is a great Jesuit! and i am sure there are many others. I think if we all pray for them and for the Jusuit order in general GOD will draw those who are out of HIS will back into HIS will!!

Pray for them!!
 
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marciadietrich

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To my knowledge the reason the SSPX is considered schismatic doesn't have to do with doctrine as much as it has to do with the founder having ordained bishops without papal approval. They lean being outside of some issues but that isn't the reason they are considered out.

The Jesuits (or some of them) may lean outside on the other side of the fence, but to my knowledge they haven't illicitly ordained bishops and other problems that are the issue with the SSPX.

It doesn't matter which direction you leave orthodoxy and obedience, neither have a moral high ground.
 
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PeterPaul

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ShannonMcCatholic said:
I love sweeping generalisations. They're super!

You're right, let's just put some blinders in front of our eyes. But we are after all in the generation of "that's not what my priest in sullivan county is like". How many Jesuits do we need to realise there is a problem with the order? Next thing you know the Franciscans are going to be the hotbed of thomistic philosophy.
 
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PeterPaul

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marciadietrich said:
To my knowledge the reason the SSPX is considered schismatic doesn't have to do with doctrine as much as it has to do with the founder having ordained bishops without papal approval. They lean being outside of some issues but that isn't the reason they are considered out.

The Jesuits (or some of them) may lean outside on the other side of the fence, but to my knowledge they haven't illicitly ordained bishops and other problems that are the issue with the SSPX.

It doesn't matter which direction you leave orthodoxy and obedience, neither have a moral high ground.

Funny enough very few consider Protestants schismatics.
 
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Franze

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PeterPaul said:
Los Kikos are very scary. I went to the Opus Dei school and I thought it was tremendously orthodox.

Why do you think Neocathecumenal Way are scary? and why do you speak in past about Opus Dei, aren´t they orthodox?

A spanish text about what is the opinion of jesuits in Spain( is plenty of heresies)
CON MOTIVO DEL NUEVO PONTIFICADO
Los jesuitas piden al Papa más libertad de opinión e igualdad entre todos los miembros de la Iglesia

En una de sus revistas, desgranan sus solicitudes: más democracia, participación de los laicos, más frescura en las misas, un cambio en la elección de obispos, etc.

MADRID.- Con motivo de la elección de Ratzinger como nuevo Papa, los jesuitas españoles han detallado alguno de los aspectos que consideran necesarios para la Iglesia. A través del editorial de su revista 'Mensajero del Corazón de Jesús', esta orden expresa que debería permitirse una mayor libertad de opinión, igualdad entre todos sus miembros y la participación de los laicos en su vida interna.

El editorial del número correspondiente a este mes, titulado 'Una Iglesia de participación y comunión', cita además otros "sueños en voz alta", como son el que "aumentaran las atribuciones de las conferencias episcopales, que los obispos fueran elegidos y nombrados de forma diferente, teniendo en cuenta a la diócesis y al pueblo cristiano al que van a servir".

Los jesuitas creen necesario también, según el editorial, "una mayor frescura, espontaneidad y novedad" en las celebraciones litúrgicas.

Para la revista, anhelar una comunidad eclesial regida por el principio de la igualdad de todos sus miembros, varones y mujeres, clérigos y laicos, "no significa que no haya en ella diversidad de servicios, ministerios, funciones, carismas y vocaciones".

'Que no se ocupe tanto en detectar desviaciones'

Más bien, agrega el texto, quiere decir "que la Iglesia se parezca cada vez menos a una entidad administrativa" y "que no se ocupe tanto en detectar desviaciones y errores como de fomentar y tutelar la vida plural que la misma fe suscita", al tiempo "que no excluya a nadie en función del género o de los sacramentos".

El editorial pide también libertad de opinión en la Iglesia, pero advierte que ello "no es una patente de corso para que cualquiera ponga en cuestión los dogmas o la auténtica tradición". Al contrario, dice, "deseamos que las diferentes corrientes, los pareceres distintos, las ideas o mentalidades diversas, las múltiples culturas o formas de pensar tengan cabida cómoda en la comunidad cristiana".

Y añade que "puedan expresarse con respeto y humildad, aunque puedan sorprender o incluso escandalizar por ignorancia a algunos". Y es que "no hay que tener tanto miedo al pluralismo", pues "la uniformidad impuesta, hasta en lo nimio, resulta atosigante", opinan los jesuitas.

Para la revista 'Mensajero' todas estas propuestas no son fruto de un "capricho" sino de la "aceptación interiorizada de la doctrina del Vaticano II sobre la Iglesia". En este sentido afirma que "la autoridad en la Iglesia no debería confundirse, por su raíz evangélica, con el absolutismo monárquico, en el que todavía parecen ancladas ciertas estructuras de gobierno" de esta institución.

Derechos Humanos

El editorial lamenta que el estilo del ejercicio de la autoridad no haya cambiado en muchos ámbitos, pues "algunos procedimientos disciplinares, dice, rozan la vulneración de los derechos humanos". "Que la Iglesia sea jerárquica no obsta para que sea un poco más democrática", señala la publicación.

En relación con la participación de los laicos, los jesuitas inciden también en la importancia que la eclesiología del Vaticano II concedió a las Iglesias locales y nacionales, y expresan su pesar por que la participación de los laicos en la vida interna de la Iglesia sea "tan pequeña y limitada".

El editorial de 'Mensajero' concluye que "son más extensos nuestros sueños, pero sólo les hablamos hoy de unos cuantos, que nos parecen -a estas alturas- indispensables". "Ojalá este Papa, recién elegido (dicho sea de paso, por un procedimiento que no deja de ser singular y mejorable) recorra esta senda con el concurso de todos los fieles", afirman los jesuitas.

Peter Paul, if you want to translate please.
 
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nyj

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PeterPaul said:
You're right, let's just put some blinders in front of our eyes.

There is a difference between pointing out a problem amongst certain individuals, and damning an entire order because we have ants in our pants. When you condemn an entire order, as I've read in a few posts here ... you tarnish the good name of those devout, orthodox individuals who are members of the Society of Jesus.

Who steals my purse steals trash; ’tis something, nothing; ’Twas mine, ’tis his, and has been slave to thousands; But he that filches from me my good name, robs me of that which not enriches him, and makes me poor indeed. - Shakespeare, Othello
 
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Why would we try to make SSPX an orthodox Catholic group? What other "good" groups should be allowed to be somewhat schismatic? I know some "good" protestant groups. There are even Anglicans that have more reverant Masses than some Catholic parishes.

What immoral behavior are the Jesuits participating in?
Many orders had issues as far back as St. John of the Cross. He was treated horribly at the hands of his order leaders.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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bigsierra said:
There are even Anglicans that have more reverant Masses than some Catholic parishes.

There are many. :(

PeterPaul said:
Funny enough very few consider Protestants schismatics.

Very few Catholics consider the Protestants to be schismatics?!:eek:

PeterPaul said:
Next thing you know the Franciscans are going to be the hotbed of thomistic philosophy.

If only I understood why this would be surprising, then I'm sure I'd be a better Catholic nerd! ;)

Rob
 
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marciadietrich

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Robbie_James_Francis said:
Very few Catholics consider the Protestants to be schismatics?!:eek:

I'd say all Catholics realize that protestants are not in union with the Catholic church, not obedient to the Pope and do not teach what the Catholic church teaches. Though schismatic might not be the correct or complete term to describe their relationship to the Church anyhow, and some might not apply that term, I doubt many Catholics believe that protestants are IN the Catholic Church proper.

I didn't understand the reply as it didn't address what I was saying. Jesuit priests are fully in union with the Pope in terms of being ordained and practicing Catholic priests, regardless if some have errant personal ideas. Every single SSPX priest is technically in schism, even if they pray for the Pope, even if they are generally orthodox in their views on doctrine. Many Orthodox priests might be more reverent and more "orthodox" than some Jesuit priests. But the Jesuit priest is still the priest in communion with the Pope and the Catholic Church and the Orthodox priest is not by virtue of being EO.

If you are out, you are out and doesn't matter if you are out for being too liberal or too conservative, Orthodox, SSPX or Sedevacantist or if they are in schism on the liberal side ... other than in how we try to bring them back home.

Marcia
 
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