What what?

[Caylin]

Well he could set it up so people aren't tortured after they die. The not being with god option could always be not burning forever.

 

[Zecryphon]

He has set it up so people don't have to burn for eternity by having the grace to give people the gift of faith in Jesus Christ. For the people who don't want anything to do with that, there is the alternative.

 

[pgp_protector]

Are members of the GLBT community going against God even if they're devout christians?

As much as Christians that are lying is.
After all lying is also an abomination to the Lord correct ?

Proverbs 12:22 (King James Version)
Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

 

[savedandhappy1]

But if God had not created a hell to begin with there would be no reason for anyone to be saved from it, would there?

There is so much circular reasing going on here. It reminds me somewhat of the protection racketeers in America's past. As long as YOU pay up regularly, WE will protect YOU from US.

I'm sorry I saw the cross icon and thought you were a Christian, but if you think we are the onces who pay up regularly then well that changes things.

Jesus paid the price already, all we have to do is thank Him, ask for forgiveness for the things we have done, and follow Him. So I am alittle confussed as to where you are getting the We pay up regularly thing.

Forgive me for misunderstanding your icon, and thinking you were already aware of the price Christ paid for all, and the love that held Him on that cross, so that we have a way of becoming a child of God.

 

[savedandhappy1]

God created Hell for the devil and His angels. Humans are not meant to go there, but they will if they step out of this world without Christ. But it's not God's will that they do go there, it's His will that all be saved through Christ. The scriptures are clear though that not all will be saved.

 

[Morrigu]

There's several reasons, among which include revisionism of traditional doctrine. There is nothing wrong with love, if it is legitimately love in the first place. I love my father, my brother, my uncles, and my friends. I am not homosexual -- so it is apparent that "love" of itself does not define homosexuality. It is inherently dependent upon sexual activity, which, outside of marriage, is consistently and traditionally considered fornication. It doesn't matter if its homosexual acts, heterosexual acts, or anything else -- if it's outside of marriage, it is considered fornication. But those acts are often ingrained into one's identity, and so it becomes difficult to separate the act from the emotion. So consequently it often seems that homosexuals are seeking acceptance of their behavior, which is not possible, and that Christians are seeking to condemn homosexuals on the basis of their "orientation", which is not Christian.

Hi!
well, i have allways hated the way that christianity labels sexuality as something to be supressed. That is not healthy.

So couples love comes with a little sexual desire, there is plenty of selfless love in it too, in this day and age sex is not a taboo, i agree that we are oversexualized, but that is the effect of spending centuries under a strong cultural sexual represion.

Christianity is a tolerant religion. But that does not mean it embraces those things which are tolerated, nor that it does not actively work to fix wrong-doing. Nor does it mean that it will redefine traditional doctrine for the sake of new passions.

That is why i don't like the concept of "Tolerance", it implies that you accept the presence of something you dislike, but I does not the validity of that wich you dislike.

I prefer the term "acceptance"

Gays should be accepted as the part of society we are.

Is that all that all homosexuals want to do?

Yes it is...

 

[KCKID]

But if God had not created a hell to begin with there would be no reason for anyone to be saved from it, would there?

There is so much circular reasoning going on here. It reminds me somewhat of the protection racketeers in America's past. As long as YOU pay up regularly, WE will protect YOU from US.

I'm sorry I saw the cross icon and thought you were a Christian, but if you think we are the onces who pay up regularly then well that changes things.

I DO consider myself a Christian but I have little in common with mainline Christianity. I also use logic whereas so many others just hear the words from the scriptures (some even READ the words, but most don't) and follow like sheep as if in a trance. God gave us more than the Bible. He also gave us a brain with which to reason things out. I believe that a combination of both is necessary when attempting to understand scripture.

I felt that the 'YOU pay up regularly' part was necessary in order for me to effectively make the analogy of the protection racketeers and the latter part, 'WE will protect YOU from US' which more applies to the mainline Christianity concept of hell. Forget about the first part - which has nothing to do with God and hell - and just concentrate on the last part. If it sounds any better it could be changed to, 'YOU repent regularly'.

The MAIN point IS ...according to mainstream Christianity, God set up a hell KNOWING in advance that millions of 'lost souls' would finish up there and be tormented for eternity. But God made hell anyway. Why would He allow those 'lost' ones to be born in the first place knowing what would befall them? Is He a sadist? Sure sounds like it. I'm not talking about one's free will to make choices, whatever THAT means in this particular case. I'm talking about a God who would have known in advance who WOULD accept Jesus into their lives and who WOULD NOT accept Jesus into their lives. I'm talking about a God who would know in advance that MILLIONS of those who are destined for His hell will never even have HEARD of Jesus!

But yet, this situation seems to be A-Okay with you, savedandhappy1, and with mainstream Christianity in general. In fact, you appear to be almost casual about it.

Jesus paid the price already, all we have to do is thank Him, ask for forgiveness for the things we have done, and follow Him. So I am alittle confussed as to where you are getting the We pay up regularly thing.

As said, don't get hung up on that part. God made a hell when He didn't HAVE to. Same with the protection racketeers who didn't HAVE to torch someone's business or beat them up (hell). The protection racketeers gave the business owners a choice (SOME CHOICE! ...saved or lost). They could 'play the game' (accept Jesus/repent) or they could face the consequences (hell) that the racketeers had set up in the first place.

Forgive me for misunderstanding your icon, and thinking you were already aware of the price Christ paid for all, and the love that held Him on that cross, so that we have a way of becoming a child of God.

My problem is not so much that Jesus paid the price for all but that God would prepare a place of torment for those who don't - for whatever reason - accept the words from a book. Does this sit well with you, savedandhappy1? It sure does NOT sit well with me.

Note: I have no idea what happens when we die and nor does ANYONE ELSE. We can only speculate. All I DO know is that logic tells me that an Almighty Creator would NOT become the most vile and hated being in the boundless cosmos by allowing His precious creations to suffer ANY form of punishment as that accepted by mainstream Christianity.

 

[David Brider]

As much as Christians that are lying is.
After all lying is also an abomination to the Lord correct ?

Lying is a specific action.

Being gay, lesbian, or bisexual isn't.

Although I'm aware that there is an argument that engaging in male-male sex is an abomination, I'm not aware of any scriptural case to be made that simply being gay, lesbian or bisexual constitutes being an abomination.

David.

 

[BreadAlone]

Although I'm aware that there is an argument that engaging in male-male sex is an abomination, I'm not aware of any scriptural case to be made that simply being gay, lesbian or bisexual constitutes being an abomination.

As there is none. Your sexual orientation doesn't damn you, your choice to act on it can though..

 

[Morrigu]

As there is none. Your sexual orientation doesn't damn you, your choice to act on it can though..

I still don't understand the desire of the christian churches to repress all sexual behavior

 

[KCKID]

I still don't understand the desire of the christian churches to repress all sexual behavior

It's known as 'control'. Thru'out the ages there has always been a fear-factor involved within Christianity. You see examples of this so much of the time in the posts of the 'hard-liners'. There seems to be something most odd in a message that goes, "Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul ...OR ELSE!"

 

[Caylin]

He has set it up so people don't have to burn for eternity by having the grace to give people the gift of faith in Jesus Christ. For the people who don't want anything to do with that, there is the alternative.

That doesn't answer why the not being with god option has to be torture forever and always.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

I still don't understand the desire of the christian churches to repress all sexual behavior

The simple answer is this: Sex not only brings us closer to one another, but it has the power to bring us closer to God as well. The same thing goes for communal singing. Bodily intimacy (both sex and singing) have the incredible potential of bringing us deeper into the Presence of the Divine.

And the Church finds that very threatening. The Church wants to be the only thing between you and God - that way they have a kind of control. This is not true of every church, but it is a pervasive, repressed attitude.

 

[Zecryphon]

That doesn't answer why the not being with god option has to be torture forever and always.

Because you're being punished for your sins.

 

[Caylin]

Which makes torture ok?

 

[Zecryphon]

Why do you think people are being tortured in Hell? Who is doing this torturing? I see nothing in the scriptures that supports that. I don't even see the word torture used in the English translations. Now, I did a word search for all the uses of the word Hell in the NT. I don't see that anyone is being tortured.

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Mat 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Mar 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Nope, no specific mention of torture here. I don't know where you get this stuff from. Certainly not the scriptures.

 

[KCKID]

I think 'eternal torment' is being construed as 'torture'.

 

[KCKID]

And, why not?

 

[Morrigu]

It's known as 'control'. Thru'out the ages there has always been a fear-factor involved within Christianity. You see examples of this so much of the time in the posts of the 'hard-liners'. There seems to be something most odd in a message that goes, "Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul ...OR ELSE!"

I guess, they have so much influence over culture that they don't have to lift a finger to repress someone, the families do it for them.

The one thing I am still wondering is why and how has it worked this long? Fear works good for keeping people under control for a short time, but look at the way that it goes for dictatorships, they eventually are overthrown by people tired of being afraid.

No, i think its more subtle, they give such a confusing message: "God is love, but he hates you", "Hate the sin, not the sinner" (yet they identify and attack the "sin" trough the "sinner"), We have the only Truth, but respect everyone else (How? if most of them are raised to be selfrighteous, how can they respect anyone?)

In the end this mixed signals turn out forming extremly opposing positions, great devotion and great rejection. but they are asured that a great porcentage of them will follow them.

After all that, the sex represion pill works just like a cherry on the top. It seals the deal: You are suposed to reproduce, but you are alo suposed to hate sex.

The simple answer is this: Sex not only brings us closer to one another, but it has the power to bring us closer to God as well. The same thing goes for communal singing. Bodily intimacy (both sex and singing) have the incredible potential of bringing us deeper into the Presence of the Divine.

And the Church finds that very threatening. The Church wants to be the only thing between you and God - that way they have a kind of control. This is not true of every church, but it is a pervasive, repressed attitude.

mmm... interesting, I like that view on sex. Still, i think i will go with the control option. In the end it seems more posible. A cultural way of keeping us under control.

It seems like it has worked for centuries.

Because you're being punished for your sins.

this one is no good for wool, but I'm sure he will give some fine lamb chops.