What we are?

[rwc109]

In response to an assertion : "What you are is revealed by what you do.
What you do reveals what you really believe."

What you are is revealed in Love in the depths of your heart and eventually by the spirit of Truth of God,

what you do on earth is nothing but vanity apart grom the Love one can manage to do,
but in contrast with Love the vain acts become the negative witness of what one is NOT :-

Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecc 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Ecc 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
Ecc 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
Ecc 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

[Sorry, but God's daffodils around the place seem much prettier]
It seems all-too-obvious to many that "what we are" is the 'self'...

that is until one looks deeply into one's heart and sees that something about us is NOT satisfied with 'self' ,

something very deep that we rarely listen to sees love as beyond what we do and yet as completely desirable

[were it not that the world
gets in the way
with 'practical'
'considerations' then we should 'be' Love as God isa Love]

Something within us that is beyond what we can do and yet which we respect beyond self... that is a reasonable definition of 'a god' to a man in the world... that is Love and that is what we are. not our individusl 'self'

 

[rwc109]

The simple truth is that truth is NOT relative to blind belief [or to anything], it is absolute ...

AND what little we know of absolute truth is in the desire to love [everyone] that is not fulfilled in most men...

Thus mankind is NOT free in his will [else he would do what he would to do, to Love] , but the freedom to love is not acheived by self, it is not even acheivable by self... !

FULL freedom to be confomed to the Love and truth within our being comes with redemption to the spirit only and whilst the righteous few almost get there it is nevertheless in the future for all mankind [it only starts with a few at the return of Christ and is not close to finished even a thousand years afterward]

Why is it then that man seeks a quick fix to answering this deepest desire to Love when deep in his heart he knows that ANY substitute is taking him the 'wrong' way [not the righteous way]... ?

the answer reveals the VERY REAL lack of freedom of will in man, having first closed his eyes on love he becomes a slave to seeking solutions by self [and never finds a one because there are none, so for many we just thrash around in the dark a while until our death ]

Love is the ultimate answer then, but something does not become Love by simply calling it Love, Love is the very visage of God to man that unloving man simjply cannot bear to face or even acknowledge in his own heart that he desires COMPLETELY ....

BUT the situation exists ONLY BECAUSE of God and it is ONLY God , not any alternative idol , that will resolve it by His own way, the way through Jesus Christ and the ministry of the [144,000 of] Israel anciently declared to His prophets from the beginning...

And there is no mention of using alternative methods of'spirituality or even modern religions to be found there...

There is however instruction expressed quite explicitly in scripture of withdrawal from people who rely on such 'magic' and ritual religion based on blind belief [in idols/paganised adeas] , these are not the way of the Word or the God, of Jesus Christ as described in the bible

,,, so what is the authority for such ideas?

.... clearly none more than the promises of Satan ! -and what profit is there to a man to gain the whole earth if his belief is blindly in Satan through idols even if given the label of for instance Christ, but withour the holy spirit of truth from the God of Love Himself?
Outside the rather unique state of being 'at one' with God through His spirit [a state NOT for the many at this time] it turns out that the BASIS of what we choose to call 'our beliefs' is actually fear... !

the fear of NOT-KNOWING covered up by a sort of grasping onto blind faith , faith in 'something' so as not to feel so empty...

This seems a frightening insight, unable to face the whole truth of our hearts we concoct systems based on 'beliefs' [even 'rationalism'] to hide from what we simply must EVENTUALLY acknowledege, that we have not been the loving beings that essenytially we ARE -

and yet more than anything would TURN back to being the love we cannot any longer do [we cannot DO Love because of our models, our beliefs , in the world, even our 'religious beliefs' ! ]
... what Love then can we not do? why must there be this great fear - "that we have not been loving"?

I say this and things like it so often u,have I maybe lost sight of the fact that it is not at all obvious to others what I amtalking about.?

You may say "I'm not afraid of discovering that i have not been loving. I am not aware of there being some love that I can no longer do. i don't even know what that means."

and ask me what am I afraid of ?
so what love can we not do? ...

the examples are endless as soon as one starts looking ,but perhaps consider one just to kick off the process - but first let me clarify that I am not saying that one cannot conceive of being loving [even though our conception is limited] simply that one cannot bring oneself to do even the love that one knows [and the obstacle is the acquired conceptions of life from the world that place values on things other than lovingness]...

so let us consider the simple, not too simplistic i hope, [awful] unlovingness of allowing 24,000 -mostly little kids- to die miserably of starvation EACH DAY in THIS world

....whilst the majority in the West [in particular] makes itself ill by over-eating and actually simply wastes food by eating far more than we can even digest...

I suspect that almost everyone knows FULL WELL that this is unloving

but most do very little about putting that straight ,

they are unable to do so because of their conceptions of life giving them other values [THUS FALSE values by their own heart's largely silenced standards, the WITNESS of their own being AGAINST what they DO in the world!] ...

the world's empty values have largely taken over from the love within and the love is censored from consideration!

but there is still a VERY REAL conflict in doing this AGAINST the voice of the heart -

and another fear is GENERATED in our CONCEPTION from the threat of exposure to this truth from being that would condemn self from one's own being, from the very Love that we really are....

this latter fear would be resolved by recognising of that witness of truth , of ACKNOWLEDGING Love [as happens in the 'few']

...but for the many it simply cosolidates the censorship of the truth of being from within BY the [empty!] ways of the world...

evidence originally addressedto the 'few' :-
- 2Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

-1John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

 

[Havoc]

Truth is objective.

Human perception of truth, however, is subjective in the extreme.

All the claims of absolute truth in the world are worthless unless you can actually prove you have the absolute truth. Until you can do that your words are nothing more than "sounding brass and tinkling silver".

 

[rwc109]

Why then must there be this great fear - "that we have not been loving" ? ...

We perhaps easily see at least some things as evil and unloving in the world without acknowledging our own role, our part to play ,FOR God , in this vast exploration of the nothingness of unlovingness by mankind...

once we see [some of the extent of] our unlovingness ,we are then in a position to at least acknowledge the conflict with what we would 'choose' to be from our hearts [if we could]

Thus even though this part of the multiverse, our 'universe', is 'crippled' with 'local' 'laws' related to time

laws that make death, decay, corruption [and evil] inevitable and that 'way of death' pervades our very AWARENESS of life in the body, our IDEA of 'self',

nevertheless, even within us all, is not only the witness of perfection, but the strong desire TO BE it [albeit much silenced by the ways of the world]...

Thus we know within us ,but scarcely acknowledge it perhaps , the perfection of the spirit [a different perfect way of being, of 'life'


but not life as we live it now!

life in a separate 'universe' that is however so close (sub-atomic distance] that it affects this universe ,is even integral to its operation ,but still separate ...

this is already a more-than-possible picture painted in terms of modern physical theory ... even our relative knowledge is now sufficiently INSPIRED to explore other universes like that prophesied in scripture, the new earth and new heavens where God can be with man [new Jerusalem] after this earth and heavens is destroyed after Christ's returning....

The being then seeks timelessness [immortalitywith 'God'] , but the body inevitably follows the world ... but only one of these is apparent MASTER at any one time...

for the few righteous then, there is maintenance of the being from the 'spirit of truth' [from God], but for the many there then is conflict in this state of being and thus inevitably the fear associted with the inner knowledge of perfection [of lovingness] that cannot be fulfilled yet in our life because the world is 'in the way'...

But mankind actually only exists to fulfill this exploration of emptiness toward our establishment [a sort of proof to ourselves] of the glory of the 'law' of love as perfection

and since this in effect [as we see it temporally] extends the scope of God
...into what is NOT God [what is temporary] then the exixtence of man is an inevitable consequence of God, as then is also this 'temporary' temporal universe...

the whole of this PART of the multiiverse and us in it is an inevitable FULFILLMENT [already finished from God's persprective] of what God is, we are God's completion of Love, we exist simply as a consequence of Love, ...

Love and God would be incomplete were it possible that there were God without us [but it is thus NOT possible, for God cannot be incomplete Love ], we are thus very much past of God , part of Love

thus the fear within us is temporary to this life , but inevitable, it must be so... and to be more or less unloving for a 'while' is the lot of almost all men...
Recall [if you can] the time between original conciousness [as a foetus] and the concept of the 'self' entering the mind ... it is NOT a sense of being one, but simply BEING ....that there is no sense of separation of being until 'self' comes into us and 'says' that there is SEPARATION and a largely uncontrollable WORLD separate again from 'self' ...

then the this world intervenes [and teaches!]... one learns to ignore the heart by dint of [false] authorities 'in the world outside' ... and the censorship of Love begins ...

Thus to return to faith in Love one would have to abandon much 'belief' inherited of the world and enter an unfamiliar state of not-knowing ... that is one source of the fear in us

.... to apparently go back to the [humble] unknowingness of a child [or foetus] because one acknowledges the emptiness of the form of 'knowledge' of the world [i.e. the limitations of relative knowledge] ...

it is a sort of vulneranbility, an insecurity , a fear... yet it is what the heart demands and its fulfillment is inevitable !
[even if only beyond death]

There is then the unbearable awareness that one has basically 'betrayed love' in one's walk into nothingness, in one's exploration of evil in this life

... that is ultimately so unbearable that one is afraid of God in that He will bring about that awful pain necessarily in bringing one back to Him, in redeeming on from the world...

It is of course irrational to fear such pain ,for it will bring about the greatest good of one's life so far!

....but nevertheless the fear is 'real' to 'self' and examinable
[yet ,as yet inpenetrable]

and in the heart of almost all men

[although there may of course be denial and censorship by the 'self'

It is significant then that the censorship cannot be maintained in state of meditation

... so one eventually reaches to the pain and fear in deepest maditation {ceasing,from, stilling, one's own thought] ...and even understanding thus this censorship the 'self' still cannot remove ALL censoring of oneself by oneself without that God first helps [and that does not happen until we have fulfilled our purpose for Him in this life, the exploratin and REJECTON of the ways of the world]

 

[rwc109]

So . within the context of this belief system; should we 'beat ourselves up' over God's plan?
...it is not our plan, we are just pawns in effect although our 'self' projects our INDEPENDENCE, our freedom of WILL

...even the 24,000 starving children who die each day on this 'awful' world are FUNDAMENTALLY God's doing - not ours;

He wants them to die to SHOW us what unloving is LlIKE , what He is not, what we basically are not and will not be

it is His way of showing that unlovingness is 'bad' that love is superior to evil

We also experince in 'self' the fear ,the pain, that must come with redemption

... this that might even seem to be the punishment for "one's exploration of evil in this life"

... but if God is a just God their would seem to be no BASIS of pain of punishment, this does not stop us feeling this pain though and fearing...

we were only doing what was required of us to demonstrate, in our own way, the evilness that God needs demonstrated.

to be consistent with our beliefs we should expect to be rewarded for being such a 'good little' explorer and rejecter of evil, helping God execute his plan.... but of course the reward only comes at the end. after EVERYONE is redeemed , not just me, not just you ...

I think what we fear is the [however pardoxically] the loss of 'self'

.... many [most?] of us fear death as a proxy for this fundamental fear!

we can not imagine not being perhaps ... if we happen to see death that way because of the world [instead of looking into our hearts to see the witness of Love]

my 'self' ,in some contrast, fears an afterlife where 'self' is subsumed by "the [humble] unknowingness of a child"

... it is still the loss of self that frightens the 'self' ad maintains the censorship of Love that only God from 'outside can break...

So we still in some sense love our 'self ' and do not wish to lose it, even though our being keeps telling us that eventuallywe MUST do so [and will then REJOICE!]

It is indeed basically just a re-phrasing of what I have been saying, I am myself however unafraid of death as such [and I do not really understand how anyone can associate death with loss of being without being at least partly aware of the awful nothingness that such belief brings with it [as Sartre describes rather awesomely, whilst also missing the point about Love]

It is however a strange 'love' of 'self' that actually despises and wishes to nihilate self as I do [unsuccessfully of course], but it is indeed the last vestiges of 'self' that prevent the success of meditation in reaching to 'face God'....

It simply is unbearable for the psyche to give up its temporary mastership as yet , but equally life with such false mastership is conflict with the desire and perceived need of the heart toward perfection of love ,it is far from being pleasant to say the least...

Equally [and perhaps the same as perfection of love] exists the desire to absolute truth [which appears to be simply a matter of acknowledgment, but still out of reach through the 'self' of the psyche ...

but one cannot get to absolute truth through relative [conditional] facts, however true, ... as soon as one says 'IF...' ,as in all scientific/mathematical/philosophical truths one is into the realm of blind belief and have lost sight of absolute truth...

Thus i would go a lot further than to say that we CAN know absolute truth .... that we DO know absolute truth!...

but the illusory self of the constructed psyche of the life in the body for most people makes it unbearable [impossible] to ACKNOWLEDGE Love through the 'self'...

The 'sword' of the bible proceeding from the mouth of Christ and guarding the way to Love, in God, is simply the absolute truth that has to be faced in order to realise perfection [the 'white stone' of the scripture]...

but the facing is prompted by act of God, not act of man under his 'self', thus none can be vain [from self] in belief in God from God, despite that man is vain in belief in religion [of man] - the latter just another aspect of the exploration of evil through that which is in place of Christ [in Greek of NT, 'antichristos']


the example of starving children NOW that people mostlt do not act to STOP was chosen to show that man cannot love as he would [as the evidence of such]...

the resultant conflict [beating one's self up?] is actually necessary to the eventual acknowledgment of what it is that the self is in conflict with... [if the conflict were to stop, there would be nothing left within by which to RECOGNISE the truth (eventually, from God )]

I have tried [rather unsuccessfully perhaps?] to express that the actual existence of this conflict is an EVIDENCE of God [because the 'desire' of the heart to love is so precisely BEYOND the self to relise ...

maybe Freud was patly right in some way, maybe the conflict is really just the id vs. the ego.

or, if one prefers a less psychological perspecitve, maybe it is just the cerebral cortex doing battle with the limbic system

[ that center of primitive urges found in the brain stem.]

isn't the brain then always in conflict with itself in just this way?

what's more, isn't it in the very nature of man to use his powers of reason to suppress and control the pimitive animal instincts bubbling up from the hypothalmus. isn't this the conflict we feel?

can we then having seen it this way say that it is real, it is constant, it is known.?

I interpret 'the conflict' as by the 'self' vs. what some higher being stands for, Love

... when, 'in fact', isn't it equally plausible that the conflict is centered around a struggle that can be described as self in the 'higher brain' vs. a lower atavistic form.

in this conflict, is not the 'self' the hero rather than the villain then ?

To constrain the interpretation into just a neural model would involve ,among other strange conclusions, that love [in the sense of altruism perhaps?] is a 'primitive' 'animal' instinct and that the propensity of representing 'self' using the [costly elabourate] brain cortex evolved as a more successful way of multiplying the species despite its conflict with love but without displacing it completely...

I guess this fits uncannily well with the observable result that love has become 'vestigial' in our culture , but personally I do not see this as a good thing or that 'self' is not used as a means to evil in man [i.e. the "villain" not the 'hero']

Equally much of the desire of man that causes conflict with love comes from motivation from 'basic' instincts - sex, hunger, ... that are not primarily mediated from the cortex ,but the ancient systems of the brain, there does not appear any structural division of the brain associated with and accounting for the conflict ...

As for Freud's theoretical framework [in so far as it goes], there is simply no indication that its conceptions correspond specifically to neural mechanisms any more than the term 'love' specifies whether its source is neural or spitritual [or for that matter both or neither]...

so the conflict envisioned by Freud is somewhat irrelevant to theis discussion besides being a somewhat inadequate [culturaly limited, over-emphasising sexual drive ]conception

More importantly for understanding being, the concept of 'love' when reduced to a material neural origin aligns itself in material terms [alongside the huamn emotion of 'love', the idea of altruism.even the conceppt of looking after bodies, and so forth]...

whereas 'Love' [in the biblical/spiritual sense] is set to do apparently 'awful' things to mankind's bodies [causing death in billions, almost the whole race], to destroy our universe, to cause man to be conformed to itself [hence it has both 'purpose' and power] against the apparent will of self...

Thus the triumph [glory] of Love is only long-term and largely unseen for those [very very many] involved in the temporary process of exploration of self/evil/unlovingness prevalent now, that is indeed allowed to be apparently dominant in this world [even 'successful' in evolutionary terms and in terms of the material values of 'self' for many] - but observably at the expense of blindness to the dreadful material fate of others in the world (that would be seen as an awful material and human cost if it were truly acknowledged ... clearly not love in the human material senses of the word)]

Thus we [significantly I feel] we find many theories of 'love' among human beings and among them much extreme hypocrisy, but the spirit being that defines Love , as the justified God of the bible ,is simply hardly represented among them despite the religions that purport to do so....

... the conceptions of love 'from' self are thus, understandably perhaps , inadequate in every sense [except in the promotion of the exploration of evil, the actual process of the present stage of God's purpose]

In contrast with the evolutionary conception in which conflict seems [to me] to be something which should become eliminated progressively, conflict in the spiritual model is inevitable as man maintains his knowledge of what is right whilst doing what [he thus knows] is wrong, which reflects in conflict with self that has taken man away from the possibility [from himself] of returning to lovingness as the way of being [that he actually desires, but cannot manage to do without help]


postamble();

 

[rwc109]

Dear Havoc,

That is eaxactly my point,

that despite our 'selves' we yet HAVE the proof of absolute truth

[at least truth only relative to our BEING]

in the Love that every one of us KNOWS in our own heart of desire

[and yet which we cannot as yet fulfill ...

but even that we come to KNOW that we will fulfill it

..beyond what we are now able to do]

 

[royboy]

Sorry if I missed it in your post, but why do you believe that this 'conflict' can only be proof of the hebrew god and not another?

 

[rwc109]

Sorry if I missed it in your post, but why do you believe that this 'conflict' can only be proof of the hebrew god and not another?

I began awareness of being in my life before the 'idea' of 'self' intruded [an extremely painful and unpleasnt idea ,asbsolutely unendorsed at that time by my being
.... which beingwas truly content without and 'I' existing, still less wanting the projection of a 'world' which I could not any more control or even be integral with ...all this thrust upon and into my mind without permission.... however my protest went unheeded, and I have recently come to understand why that was , albeit some 56 yeras later [as-it-were]

So i tried to find absolute truth in life, something in me yearned for it, first I listened to my teachers and so went through study of Medicine, Psychology, Mathematics, Locic, Meta-Theories, Philosophy, all attempts through thought!

... until the very deepest available analysis of what these forms of knowledge really are finally revealed that the quest was meaningless in this direction!

... since these things only yield RELATIVE, and not the absolute truth

... so I tried next to actually eliminate the 'self' , the world, the separation by thought

but after two years trying I had to accept that this too is impossible...

So I tried meditation [ceasing from thought] and that seemed to work fine, i made seemingly massive leaps forward in removig the censorship integral to function of the consciousness [and apparent even in the structure and function of the brain] but one can only expand one's conciousness so far before coming up against the need for absolute truth yet again and it just is not available through meditation...

If one tries to reach God by meditation, one is ultimately just thrown back at the world to finish God's purpse in one FIRST

It took the very deepest of depression in which I lost EVERY value in the world, even the desire to move, before god realised that I had rejected the world and moved me to finally acknowledge what had always been there!

One ought perhaps to feel infuriated that the solution one has been seeking one's whole life has been carried around quite apparent but UNHEARD , right there in one deepest desire to Love [as God Loves] but the self actually prevents this acknowledgment that can only come in response to god's decision that one has completed the task of overcoming, of REJECTING the world's values and ways and are ready to start the long slog back to being able to bear the truth [through much woe, much sadness abut what one has done, what one has become in the world in service to PROVING basically that God is right, Tha Love is the only way of being that works [ultimately even beyond this space-time]

Thus once being re-born to valueing Love [as I had valued Love without a name in real birth before 'self' and 'the world' arrived] one is on the last lap, the struggle to become more righteous, to become like God by just yearning in prayer to Him and meditating in His scripture in ever greater awe and praise of what Love is, what God stands for, the absolute of being, as God slowly reveals Himself as ne can bear the truth - if one is called to that role.

And yet the role of many on this earth is the ensnarement of Satan, the whle structure of the christian churches is set up with this truly MAJOR essential task in mind and to acheive this God send's strong delusion on the ones that He has not yet called to love the truth... It is quite essential to understand that tis purpose in being deluded is no more optional than my involuntarily accepting 'self' and 'the world' into my conciousness .... God has chosen Israel for the eventual priethood ministering to Redemption of ALL, God has chosen others to be called who are NOT the chosen people of Israel who wil simply move toward Love in this life and be perfected only after death when resurrected in the enw earth, still others god has enforced the role of following the antichrist with no resistance in this life [and thus graeter woe in the next before redemption]

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Since the scripture shows conclusively [e,g.Rev 7:4-10] that tribal Israel is redeemed first then clearly this priesthood is the one used in redemption and the scripturally unordeined snful-moral unroyal priesthood of christianity has ite function in snaring Satan, not in salvation as it claims [on account that it MUST support the false image of Christ, the antichristos, the one in place of Christ, the vcar of Christ ... these all mean the same thing

It seems almost pardoxical that God deceives the churches into following Christ that is really Satan in diguise, just to get Satan to say that he is Christ and God so that Christ[the real one] can return to prove him wrong and thus bring the age to an end so that redemption can begin

Thus we see that only the scripture of the hebrew God contains the details of prophesy which account for the otherwise bizarre survival of the tiny Hebrew nation throughout all history despite massive persecution and genocide against it and the paradox of a 'christian church which is divided and yet claims to have the whole truth of God and all prophecy through the spirt of truth promised by Jesus to all his followers [in reality only the holy 'saihts; of Isarel, the 144,000 of Rev 7:4-10]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

There really is nothing in this world to match the sheer complexity and integration of the scripture of god, no other 'sacred' document comes close in describing the whole of life as it is.

 

[rwc109]

Truth is objective.

Human perception of truth, however, is subjective in the extreme.

All the claims of absolute truth in the world are worthless unless you can actually prove you have the absolute truth. Until you can do that your words are nothing more than "sounding brass and tinkling silver".

see my above post

Roger ['watchman']

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste,

hmm... meditation isn't really designed to "find or discover" God, yoga is a relinking of the primordial consciousness with the human consciousness, perhaps that would have been more beneficial for a person with a conception of God?

in the Occident, God and man are intrinsicly seperate, not merely formally. in the Orient, God is everthing, man incluced.. that are intrinsicly the same.

 

[roadie432002]

watchman,the 144k jews in revelation are the servants of God who are sealed on their foreheads by the "living seal of God"and will be protected from harm during the great tribulation that has not occurred yet.rev 7:2-4;

 

[rwc109]

watchman,the 144k jews in revelation are the servants of God who are sealed on their foreheads by the "living seal of God"and will be protected from harm during the great tribulation that has not occurred yet.rev 7:2-4;

Yes I'm aware of that, it doesn't haapen until the return of Christ, but I don't ses what point you are making.

 

[rwc109]

Namaste,

hmm... meditation isn't really designed to "find or discover" God, yoga is a relinking of the primordial consciousness with the human consciousness, perhaps that would have been more beneficial for a person with a conception of God?

in the Occident, God and man are intrinsicly seperate, not merely formally. in the Orient, God is everthing, man incluced.. that are intrinsicly the same.

interesting assumption you make here that meditation is always yogic or Eastern...

To me it is simply ceasing from thought to allow release of all but th final censorship by the 'self' , an Eastern forms of meditation limit themseves by using thought to enter meditation, whereas my form of [thus Western?] mediation takes one right up to the so-called pearly gates, the flashing sword of knowoing Love itself that is ONLY given by Gd when HE is ready, when He has finished His purpose in us and we are thus ready to start the terk [of woe] back toward redemption.

 

[stranger]

in the Occident, God and man are intrinsicly seperate, not merely formally. in the Orient, God is everthing, man incluced.. that are intrinsicly the same.

It is a problem raised by atheists that the chrsitian God is separate , perfect, transcendental and so COULD not interact with physical man ... a valid point in logic if one is talking about the image of god presented by religion ...

To me the separation appears highly analogous to the separation between states of mind that we experience ourselves in the distinct sleep and waking states ... that our dreams affect our lives and our lives affect our dreams and yet these are distinct separated states...

There is also the moment of waking when one re-orientates from one 'reality' to another very different one.... just like the moment of 'translation' to spirit form the body described in scripture perjhaps :-

1Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
- That would mean that what we see as physical reality is analagous to dreaming, as if we are indeed made in the image of God , we are spirit , and the spirit only imagined, dreamed up, this apparent projected reality to see about it ...

The view is not inconsistent with scripture by any means as far as I can see and explains much in a way we can understand now ....

 

[The-Doctor]

RWC109: What is the point of this thread....?

 

[Nymphalidae]

What are we? I'm an entomologist.

 

[""]

AND what little we know of absolute truth is in the desire to love [everyone] that is not fulfilled in most men...

Thus mankind is NOT free in his will [else he would do what he would to do, to Love] , but the freedom to love is not acheived by self, it is not even acheivable by self... !

Untrue. What you preach (in your countless posts, under your various names, with your various religious affiliations... what? you thought it was impossible to figure out?) is incorrect.

Have you ever heard of the KISS phrase?
K eep
I t
S imple
S tupid

I'm not calling you stupid, so don't get huffy with me. I'm saying that your 10,000 word essay is overflowing with fallacy #1, and #2, speaks nothing of Christ, only of God and Love. Therefore, it is "without". You have a cross up there by your name, calling yourself a Christian, and because of that I have every right to point these errors out to you. If you were using a buddhist symbol, or some other religious symbol, then I would chalk it up to you not being a Christian. The differences would make sense.

If you want to lead others to God, (as a Christian) keep it simple. Keep it biblical. Keep it truthful.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

God is love.
Jesus is the only way to God.

God created us all with free will. That means we can choose to get to God through Jesus, or we can discount the importance of Salvation through Christ, and walk through life alone.

If you want agape love (true, real, spiritual love) you will find it in God, but to get to it, you need Christ.

 

[""]

Yes I'm aware of that, it doesn't haapen until the return of Christ, but I don't ses what point you are making.

Again, this is incorrect. You are claiming that the great tribulation doesn't occur until the return of Christ. The 2nd coming of Christ occurs after the great tribulation.

 

[Moros]

Something within us that is beyond what we can do and yet which we respect beyond self... that is a reasonable definition of 'a god' to a man in the world... that is Love and that is what we are. not our individusl 'self'

False.

 

[sk8Joyful]

If you want to lead others to God, (as a Christian) keep it simple. Keep it biblical. Keep it truthful.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
God is love. Jesus is the only way to God.

God created us all with free will. That means we can choose to get to God through Jesus, or we can discount the importance of Salvation through Christ, and walk through life alone.

If you want agape love (true, real, spiritual love) you will find it in God, but to get to it, you need Christ.

GOD's Agape: true, real, spiritual love
Why is it valued so little ?, evidenced by
many Christians prefering their Faith/Trust, transferred unto 'men, & their theories'.
Comments?