what we all need to relize

[republican]

Man I hate hearing and avg american saying oh BUSH THIS BUSH THAT THE ECONOMY AND OUR MILITARY. I think what everyone does not relize is that our military is ment to do these type of operations, my father who is in the service he is proud of what he and the men and women of our military are doing. And the economy not much you can do about it becuase down the road it is gonna go up and down, what we really do not know is what happens to the world is what happens to our economy.

 

[Jacey]

The military is not meant to be an occupation force. They are not trained to do what they are doing in Iraq.

 

[republican]

OK we are going in and takin out the hot areas where the terroist sleep eat and train, the iraqi police force is up and running as the iraqi military is patroling the streets with us.

 

[rogsr]

In case any of don't watch the news or have not been there, Iraq is a complete mess. They are on the brink of civil war, and the UN has now called this action illegal. It does not matter how strong ones military is if the people who are being fought against are angry enough to not want to stop fighting. Oh, and by the way, do really think that the insurgents that we are now engaged against are all terrorists? Because if so, I would have to tell you that they are mostly normal everyday Iraqi citizens, not al-qaeda operatives. Our military is performing awesome, as we should, but our leaders have completely dropped the ball.

Also, seeing some of my young friends come home with both hands blown off, genitalia scared beyond repair, and no legs, and no jaw, and parapeligic, and nearly insane changed my opinion on this quite a bit...to say the least. My biggest complaint about GW is that he was too big of a coward to fight his war. So, in what world does he have the right to send me off to die in this war? Our beautiful flag is now soaked in blood and oil.

I don't want to attack mr. B's faith, however, a man known as the "texecutioner," because he did not stay a single execution as governor, can not be merciful, and need I remind that, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

 

[Billnew]

In case any of don't watch the news or have not been there, Iraq is a complete mess. They are on the brink of civil war, and the UN has now called this action illegal. It does not matter how strong ones military is if the people who are being fought against are angry enough to not want to stop fighting. Oh, and by the way, do really think that the insurgents that we are now engaged against are all terrorists? Because if so, I would have to tell you that they are mostly normal everyday Iraqi citizens, not al-qaeda operatives. Our military is performing awesome, as we should, but our leaders have completely dropped the ball.

My biggest complaint about GW is that he was too big of a coward to fight his war. So, in what world does he have the right to send me off to die in this war? Our beautiful flag is now soaked in blood and oil.

I don't want to attack mr. B's faith, however, a man known as the "texecutioner," because he did not stay a single execution as governor, can not be merciful, and need I remind that, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

The part I omitted I will grant you as probably true.
But please list your sources for the rest of this post.

What part of this war was not to be expected?
Conquering a country requires the cost of lives. Be it slaughter of all people in the country or the killings we are seeing now.
The only way to ensure this type of problem is to kill all people in a land. It's the only way to know that there is no one trying to kill you.

I don't believe Iraq is near civil war. They might be if we left. Several different tribes fighting for leader role.

Now on to the another point. President Bush served his country during the Vietnam war. He served in the GUard. He flew jets to various parts of the world. He was not directly apart of the war, but he helped.
I was not in Grenada, but I was in the Air Force then. Am I a coward?

Would you have went if Clinton had the courage to fight a war? A draft dodger?

3point: I ask you,if the jurys found the murderers guilty and all appeals are
used up, why should a governor stay an executiuon?
That would say that the governor would be saying the courts weren't doing there job.
With 1000's of murders daily, people are worried about the few executions we have? I think we need to have "swifter" punishment. Not 20 yearsof waiting.
2 years at most.

(I forgot to add I was in Basic training during Granada.)

 

[The Unforgiven]

As soon as "ordinary everyday Iraqi's" pick up a gun, and aim that gun at a US service person, or a Iraqi official that person becomes a insurgent. If we are held at gunpoint, or mined, or car bombed that group responsible becomes insurgents.

The Iraqi delegated force has decided we should continue our presence in their country. Therefore we are the constituted authority by the Iraqi Government.

We are in a word of hurt. We are in a country that needs us, but hates us being there. I believe (but hope not) this government will fall eventually. All these poor people have known their whole lives is war, and death, and torture. It is a no win scenario for the United States, and I pray every day for our Service People and our ELECTED government.

Calling Mr Bush a coward solves nothing. If you do not our flag, or our government you should do something about it. Its real easy to criticize, less easy to help.

 

[rogsr]

I helped out by serving four years in the Marine corps, and have expierienced first hand the things that I speak of in my messages....is that good enough for you? Some of your posts make me really wonder if we all read the same bible.

To pull favors during vietnam to serve in a non-combat unit makes one a coward.

Conquering a country requires the cost of lives. Be it slaughter of all people in the country or the killings we are seeing now.
The only way to ensure this type of problem is to kill all people in a land. It's the only way to know that there is no one trying to kill you.

Are you trying to justify the shedding of innocent blood, because that is what it sounds like you are doing? You sound like you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

[rogsr]

I helped out by serving four years in the Marine corps, and have expierienced first hand the things that I speak of in my messages....is that good enough for you? Some of your posts make me really wonder if we all read the same bible.

To pull favors during vietnam to serve in a non-combat unit makes one a coward.

Conquering a country requires the cost of lives. Be it slaughter of all people in the country or the killings we are seeing now.
The only way to ensure this type of problem is to kill all people in a land. It's the only way to know that there is no one trying to kill you.

Are you trying to justify the shedding of innocent blood, because that is what it sounds like you are doing? You sound like you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

[The Unforgiven]

I helped out by serving four years in the Marine corps, and have expierienced first hand the things that I speak of in my messages....is that good enough for you? Some of your posts make me really wonder if we all read the same bible.

No thats is not good enough. You say you served 4 years so thats it. Thats the end of your commitment? America is a tough country to love, you gotta work at it constantly. You have to love the good and the bad. Seems like recently if anyone doesn't like what someone says they pull out their flag waive it and say HEY I WAS A MARINE, or Vet.

Also just because someone has a different slant on things or disagrees with you gives you no right to attack their faith (ie "Some of your posts make me really wonder if we all read the same bible." Quotes you. I would never dream of making a statement like yours to someone I have never met.

Calling our commander and chief a coward is most definitely conduct unbecomming a Marine, or any branch of the service. You are entitled your opinion, but so is everyone else. As a Marine I hope you understand how wrong it is to make that statement in a public forum.

Keep your opinion and post it freely, keep your insults to yourself.

 

[rogsr]

Someday I hope to be as patriotic as you my friend.

Honestly, I really do wonder if we Christians are on the same page. I don't mean that in a question-your-faith sort of way. However, how can so many Christians be so supportive of war? Didn't Jesus say, "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God?" Maybe you agree with GW's "premptive" strike policy, but I feel differently. I don't feel that conquering for the sake of peace is really a valid argument. I also feel that he is unfit for command(as the right wing proclaims of John Kerry, an actual Vietnam veteran). How can a man who fled from dangerous waters as a young man now freely cast young men into those same waters? And whether I am a former Marine or civilian I can say anything I want, as stated in the constitution. Also, I havedone my time and that is good enough. Just because I am not pro war does not mean that I don't love my country, I've given her more then you know. War is an ugly and unnatural human event. Human beings were not created for killing, and that is why so many of us come home and can not "reassimilate" back into society. When you realize that you have lost count of how many people you've killed a peice of you wonders if what you've done is right. You spend months or maybe even years trying to justify your actions. Then you come to the conclusion that you are as much of a victim of war as the men who did not come home at all. Then all you can do is pick yourself up dust yourself off and continue to march.

Peace to you my friend and may God have mercy on us all-

 

[The Unforgiven]

Wow, that was a great answer and a great post. I am what I consider Patriotic, and my last post to you was harsh, and for that I apologize. I am human and your post struck a nerve, I hope you can forgive me. I am not pro war, and believe this thing we are presently in is wrong. I too have served my time, and am tired of seeing our young men dying in a place we are not wanted, nor needed anymore. Just for your info I am not Pro Bush, Just I am a lot more anti pro Kerry.

I have to ask you a question though. Yes Bush evaided Vietnam, as a lot of Americans did at that time. He was very young at the time, and if you remember the whole atmosphere at the time everyone at home thought it was a unjust war just like now. There are a lot of simularities in the two.
If you are as old as I am you probably remember the whole Canada Stink. But that was over 30 years ago. If the blood of the lamb has forgiven him, why cannot we. He surely has not dodged any responsibility as a citizen since that time.

Now a topic that will probably cause some discussion. Our bible tells us to obey our government. God himself used war to a end of his means. I am not placing Bush anywhere near God, but he is the govenment and we were attacked in our homeland. Lets not get into Iraq and the lies that got us there. We all know that Hussein was a evil dictator, but probably had little to nothing to do with 9/11. While I wish we had never gone back into Iraq, he is now out of power. People say we did not find weapons of mass distruction, but we have. Hussein himself was a weapon of mass distruction. how many people do you have to cruelly kill to be classified as such, thru your direct or indirect actions.

The main difference between us I guess is that even though I think this whole thing stinks, I am 100% in support of the US Government publicly, and whatever the outcome is. Inside I am angry about the lies and politics that led us here today.

I want to thank you for you tempered response. Your conduct is glowing example of how a Marine should act, and I think all your brothers would be proud. Mine however was conduct unbecomming a ex sailor (USN). Please keep your spirit as is. You have taught me a lesson, and a valuble on at that. I am glad to have known you via this post.


Respectfully
Jim

 

[rogsr]

Jim,

Here is the thing about Bush/Cheney, they are extremely shady. We had no Intel before we invaded a nation, an action with which we were not supported by the rest of the world. Now, if you personally think that Iraq and al-qaeda were partners then that's fine. However, that would very strange because Osama Bin Laden has publicly denounced Saddam Hussain as a bad muslim(which is like calling someone a fasle Christian). So, how could al-qaeda be allies with Iraq?

Next issue, if you are a student of history and polotics then you should know that Iraq is on the verge of civil war. Their government is becoming more and more decentralized, which makes the power up for grabs, which in turn causes civil war. It's like every friggin' time we hand over a piece of real estate to the Iraqi security forces it gets taken by the insurgency almost immediately. So, it's like we are making no progress and just keep fighting for the same land over and over. I highly doubt that their security forces are going to be able to handle such intense counter/anti-terrorism demands anytime soon, and therefore we are not going to be able to leave anytime soon. Which means that many more soldiers will die for the sake of GW's "miscalculaion."

I look at the issue of veitman service like this..Clinton draft dodged, true, but it was out of activism which I don't personaly think makes him a coward. If there weren't so many activists how long would have Veitnam lasted? Bush pulled strings to serve in a non-combat unit. If you think about that you wonder how can a man who does that, as if his life is of more value then poor black kid that went in his place, serve as commander in chief? Agreed Bush comes off as being very confident, some may even say cocky, but his actions speak louder than words. One of the things that struck me most about Jesus is that he always went through with what he said.

In one of my earlier posts I wrote about his time as the texecutioner. I can't see someone who proclaims that Jesus Christ is his personal hero being able to execute hundreds of individuals without a single stay. The law is the law and some people really don't deserve existence for their crimes. But many see the err of their ways while in prison, and though that doesn't mean they deserve freedom it does mean that they deserve mercy. To execute hundreds of people without a single stay is the opposite of mercy. It tells me that either his faith is false or he needs to hit the book more often. To be a Christian king is no easy task and it's very dangerous for the king because he has a greater responsibility then any of us. Imagine if GW invaded Iraq for wrong reasons like oil, revenge, or hatred how much harder will he be judged?

This being so I pray that God has mercy on our souls, and that he comes quickly to stop all of the suffering that is being perpetuated in His Holy Name.

Peace,
Sean

 

[The Unforgiven]

I think you have mistaken my post. I never said there was a connection between Al Queda and Hussien. Quite just the opposite. I also believe we were deceived with false evidence from our own Government. Being done the world is better off without Hussein and his family.

I also said in my first post that the whole Iraqi Gov is falling apart and will not last. So on these things we agree. My point in that post was when a civilian picks up a gun and uses it against their own government they are now insurgents.

I have to disagree with you on your Bush thoughts. You say in one statement about grace and people changing, and then you condemn a man for something that happened 30 years ago.

I think most intelligent people know America was deceived into Iraq. Bush knew the truth, how can he not. He will be judged for that.

 

[rogsr]

My point in that post was when a civilian picks up a gun and uses it against their own government they are now insurgents.

Jim,
I'm sorry that we miscommunicated.

On Iraq
Insurgents, revolutionaries, freedom fighters, rebels, whatever. Titles such are relative to perception and favor. Have you ever thought what it would be like to have our country invaded, taken over, and bombed back into the stone age? Many Iraqi's love us for crushing Saddam Hussien, but they also hate us because we have not done anything to help rebuild Iraq beyond worrying about the oil. They are angry and traumatized, people do crazy things in that state. That doesn't mean that becoming an insurgent is good or fully justified, but it does shed light on a not too false cause and motivation.

You say in one statement about grace and people changing, and then you condemn a man for something that happened 30 years ago.

We are not talking about you or I here Jim, we are talking about a man who could destroy the entire world exponentially with nuclear weapons. His actions 30 years ago are a part of the resume that is his life. If a man confessed to me that he conscioulsy "evaded" his way out of combat duty during Vietnam I would say oh well. If that same man came to me and confessed that he consciously "evaded" his way out of combat time in Vietnam, and that wanted to be the leader of the free world I would suggest to him that he find another hobby. The United States of America should have a leader who has been consistent throughout his entire life, not perfect mind you, but consistent. Condemnation is not my thing, it's beyond my paygrade. However, I can and should judge a man by his actions past, and present when decieding whether or not I want him as my commander and chief. I'm glad that you have the opinions that you do, and I know exactly where you are coming from. No man should be judged if he has repented and made peace with the Lord our God.

Peace to you my friend-

 

[Katydid]

but they also hate us because we have not done anything to help rebuild Iraq beyond worrying about the oil.

I usually don't get into things like this, but i had to respond to this statement.

What about electricity into communities that didn't have any before the war?
What about clean running water?
What about the hospitals we have opened, and the medical care we have provided?

Iraq is a large country, we cannot fix everything all at once. We cannot turn a third world country into a thriving land in one night. It takes time and we are doing what we can.

If that same man came to me and confessed that he consciously "evaded" his way out of combat time in Vietnam, and that wanted to be the leader of the free world I would suggest to him that he find another hobby.

I find this funny, considering for eight years we had a man who dodged the draft as president and now all these people are saying that because Bush happened to not be sent to Vietnam, which it is only supposition that he used any manipulative ways to manage this, that he isn't worthy to be President. WHEN did our countries values on this change, or is this just the next excuse that the Democrats will use to discredit the President. I mean, my mom used to say , "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander". So the Democrats can have a man who ran from the draft to another country, but how dare the Republicans have a candidate that served his time and managed to not be sent to Vietnam. I don't get it.

 

[rogsr]

Double post.

 

[rogsr]

I usually don't get into things like this, but i had to respond to this statement.

What about electricity into communities that didn't have any before the war?
What about clean running water?
What about the hospitals we have opened, and the medical care we have provided?

Iraq is a large country, we cannot fix everything all at once. We cannot turn a third world country into a thriving land in one night. It takes time and we are doing what we can.

In most cities people walk through little rivers of their own raw sewage to get to places. I'm sure that you would keep you peace no matter what even if an american bomb hit your neighbors house and accidentally killed you children and your spouse. I'll bet almost every single person in that country has had a loved one killed in the war. Some people say, "Oh well, that's the cost of war." I say that those people are fools who have no understanding. How can so many people praise the Lord our God, and then praise a war without thinking of the suffering?

So the Democrats can have a man who ran from the draft to another country, but how dare the Republicans have a candidate that served his time and managed to not be sent to Vietnam.

It wasn't just by his good luck that he didn't go to Vietnam, the Texas state speaker of the house has confessed to helping george get into a non-combat unit to aviod the draft.


Peace, and may Almighty God have mercy on you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Amen.

 

[Katydid]

I'll bet almost every single person in that country has had a loved one killed in the war. Some people say, "Oh well, that's the cost of war." I say that those people are fools who have no understanding. How can so many people praise the Lord our God, and then praise a war without thinking of the suffering?

I don't try to downplay the tragedies of war, or the effects. It is horrible. No soldier that I have met takes that lightly either. None of us like war, but at times it is a necessary evil. Yes, this war is still disputed among many at to whether this was a necessary war. I believe it was. My reasons have been disputed a number of times, but I know what I believe and I have to stand by that. Though I mourn for all those who were killed and wish that it could have been avoided, I still believe that we are going to end up leaving these people better off then they started.

In most cities people walk through little rivers of their own raw sewage to get to places.

I will once again say that we are doing all we can. There are many cities and towns in this country. We cannot expect to rebuild it in months. This will take alot of hard work and the people working are putting in the time to do so. The statement I was responding to was saying that all we have fixed were the things dealing with oil. That was not a true statement. We have worked on alot more than that.

helping george get into a non-combat unit to aviod the draft.

As I stated, he did serve, though not in combat. Clinton avoided serving at all. So if by chance he had been put into a rear detachment position, would you hold that against him as well? I mean, even if strings were pulled, would you have not done the same? Is the service of those in the rear any less important than those on the front lines. People don't go into combat for a number of reasons, from medical to good luck. We don't hold that against people. My husband was in Iraq for a shorter period of time than most simply because he had to take over someone else's position. He was not next in line, but he was the best for the job, some people pulled strings for him, so should I tell my husband to never try to get into a public office, because this will be held against him??

 

[Gunny]

The military is not meant to be an occupation force. They are not trained to do what they are doing in Iraq.

They are defidentely trained to do what that are doing in Iraq. The occupation myth is that of the Liberal Agenga. Establishing a Democarcy Goverment in the Mideast is very important due to the actions of the terrorists.

If US is to counteract the many thousands of terrorists it is conducive to have a presence in the Mideast.

Unfortunately, the Liberal mindset is doomed to weeken the US National Defense.

 

[The Unforgiven]

Unfortunately, the Liberal mindset is doomed to weeken the US National Defense.

Put so well, Thanks for jumping in.