What was your initial reaction?

[Ohioprof]

even with Christ in you, in this life we still can (and do) fall into sin.

But being gay is not one of those sins, nor is having a loving, committed, same-sex marriage.

 

[Ohioprof]

Well, I wish I could say that your not worrying about it makes me not worry about you, but that isn't the case.

Will be praying for you.

Thanks for answering my questions.

And I will pray for you also. I will pray that you have a happy, fulfilled, healthy life, full of joy. I will not worry about you, though. I think worry is not a very useful emotion.

 

[artybloke]

But how do you know about the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is testified about in the Bible?

I know about the Holy Spirit throught the Bible, through my own experience of the Spirit and through finding that Spirit reflected in various other writings.

The Spirit doesn't just speak through the Bible.

And if you do believe in the Holy Spirit you do believe in a collection of words in a book which tells you not just about who the Holy Spirit is but that He lives within.

The Spirit blows where it listeth. Sometimes it speaks through the Bible, sometimes it speaks through a loving act, sometimes in the words of someone else.

the problem is that the Bible also tells us what He does which is guide us in truth and remind us of what Jesus taught, so at the moment He isnt guiding you in that.

And the Spirit has taught me that the homophobic interpretation of scripture is wrong.

 

[WarEagle]

Artybloke, I'm curious, you say that you're a Christian and under forum rules, I can't question that, although so much of what you say is inconsistent with being a "follower of Christ", which you claim to be.

You seem to have a very low view of God and His word and that should be very troubling to you. The Bible says that if you're truly a child of God, then you'll revere Him and His word.

If you were to die today and stand before God to be judged, do you believe you would go to Heaven or to Hell? Why?

 

[artybloke]

I have a very high view of God and his Word. But His Word is Christ, not an ancient human document, however wise it is.

So I revere Christ as the only Word of God.

I actually have a great deal of time for the Bible. But I don't think it's a book of rules. It's closer to poetry, a form of writing I take to be among the highest literature can achieve. It's a profound meditation on life, God, Christ, death, love, hate and the cure for sin.

The Bible is a signpost; it isn't important for itself, only for who it points to. And it points to Christ, the only living Word of God.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear artybloke

I have a very high view of God and his Word. But His Word is Christ, not an ancient human document, however wise it is.

So I revere Christ as the only Word of God.

again how do you know that His Word is Jesus Christ? You have told me not because the Bible says so and you don’t believe a collection of words, and now you refer to the Bible.

I actually have a great deal of time for the Bible. But I don't think it's a book of rules. It's closer to poetry, a form of writing I take to be among the highest literature can achieve. It's a profound meditation on life, God, Christ, death, love, hate and the cure for sin.

So God, Christ’s love death, hate and cure for sin is more like poetry to you? that’s what you have just told me.
Where does the Bible mention Christ’s hate? I don’t think so.

The Bible is a signpost; it isn't important for itself, only for who it points to. And it points to Christ, the only living Word of God.

But if it points to Him, who do you say He is?

So I revere Christ as the only Word of God.

Not according to Jesus. Jesus says we love Him and remain in Him when we obey His teaching and commands, which you are frequently disputing.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear artybloke
again how do you know that His Word is Jesus Christ? You have told me not because the Bible says so and you don’t believe a collection of words, and now you refer to the Bible.

So God, Christ’s love death, hate and cure for sin is more like poetry to you? that’s what you have just told me.
Where does the Bible mention Christ’s hate? I don’t think so.

But if it points to Him, who do you say He is?

Not according to Jesus. Jesus says we love Him and remain in Him when we obey His teaching and commands, which you are frequently disputing.

I have not seen Arty "disputing" the teachings of Jesus. He may disagree with you on some points, but you are not Jesus.

 

[WarEagle]

I have a very high view of God and his Word. But His Word is Christ, not an ancient human document, however wise it is.

Yes, it does describe Christ as the logos, but it also describes the scriptures as being the word of God.

I actually have a great deal of time for the Bible. But I don't think it's a book of rules. It's closer to poetry, a form of writing I take to be among the highest literature can achieve. It's a profound meditation on life, God, Christ, death, love, hate and the cure for sin.

So then, I take it that you don't believe that Jesus Christ and His atonement on the cross is the only avenue of salvation?

The Bible is a signpost; it isn't important for itself, only for who it points to. And it points to Christ, the only living Word of God.

Why do we need to be pointed to Christ?

Let me ask you this: If you were to die today and stand before God to be judged, do you believe you would go to Heaven or to Hell? Why?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

But being gay is not one of those sins, nor is having a loving, committed, same-sex marriage.

Why is there always a reference to "loving, committed, same sex" relationships? Does that mean that partial loving, or partially committed same sex relationships are in sin? Or is it just a method of instilling a statement into a readers subconscious by constant repetition?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

The Bible contains some of what Jesus taught and some of what he did not teach. Some of the teachings attributed to Jesus in the Bible were made up later by subsequent Christians. That includes the claim that Jesus was the messiah.

Please provide documentation on your claims, otherwise these statements are seen (by me, ofc) as an attempt to discredit basic Christian fundamentals.

 

[artybloke]

Why is there always a reference to "loving, committed, same sex" relationships? Does that mean that partial loving, or partially committed same sex relationships are in sin? Or is it just a method of instilling a statement into a readers subconscious by constant repetition?

No more than partial loving, or partially commited, straight relationships. (In other words, if they're sinful for straight people, then they probably are for gay people. But in no wise different from them.)

Personally, I suspect that all relationships are sometimes sinful and sometimes not, human beings being human and all that. But if we are quite prepared to accept someone who's relationships can be messy when they're straight, then we can do the same for gay people. Gay people are just as likely to get into emotional tangles as anyone else.

 

[savedandhappy1]

I do not believe that Jesus is the "son" of God, any more than all of us are children of God. I do not attribute divinity to Jesus. I do not believe that the resurrection literally happened. I do not believe that Jesus rose bodily from the dead. I do believe that Jesus tried to set an example of how to live. I regard Jesus as a wise teacher, not as the messiah or the savior or the son of God. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus as best we can determine them, because of his wisdom. I do not believe that the Bible is the word of God or that it was inspired by God. I think the Bible was assembled by a particular group of Jesus followers who excluded other Jesus followers and suppressed (but could not destroy) their writings.

Quote from another thread/"Gay Christians" 2, below.

I CAN tell you that I am a Christian. You don't have to agree with me, but I can tell you what I believe and how I live and what it means to me. I don't agree with some of the things you believe. You...

I was wondering Ohioprof what your definition for Christian is, since most people and the Bible believe it means follower of Christ? If you don't believe He is God's Son, or any of the things that He did, like death, burial and resurrection, then why would you follow someone you believe is/was just a wise man?

If He didn't take our sins on Himself and didn't defeat death for us, by His sacrifice, then how do we receive salvation in your opinion? What is your definition of salvation, and do you believe there is a heaven and a hell?

If you have answered these questions before forgive me for asking. Just tell me you have and I will try and look them up. I haven't read all the threads so I know you could have already covered these things, and don't want you to have to keep repeating yourself.

Let me thank you now for any answers you would share with me about these issues.

 

[Ohioprof]

Quote from another thread/"Gay Christians" 2, below.



I was wondering Ohioprof what your definition for Christian is, since most people and the Bible believe it means follower of Christ? If you don't believe He is God's Son, or any of the things that He did, like death, burial and resurrection, then why would you follow someone you believe is/was just a wise man?

If He didn't take our sins on Himself and didn't defeat death for us, by His sacrifice, then how do we receive salvation in your opinion? What is your definition of salvation, and do you believe there is a heaven and a hell?

If you have answered these questions before forgive me for asking. Just tell me you have and I will try and look them up. I haven't read all the threads so I know you could have already covered these things, and don't want you to have to keep repeating yourself.

Let me thank you now for any answers you would share with me about these issues.

That's okay that you may ask me to repeat what I believe. I realize that not everyone reads every thread.

For me being a Christian is not a doctrine, or a creed, but a practice. It's a way of living. I adhere to no theological creed. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus simply because he was a wise teacher. I do not deify Jesus. I do not believe that Jesus was any more divine than the rest of us are. I do not worry about salvation. I am a Universalist, and I believe all sentient beings are saved, though I hold this belief lightly, because I don't know what happens after death. I am happy to wait and see. I do not know what heaven is like or if there is a heaven. I do not believe in hell.

I hope that is helpful in illuminating something about my faith.

 

[david_x]

But faith in what?

Appearently nothing.

A 2000-3000 year old set of documents written by people who obviously had some very profound experiences of God they wished to convey in very human, culturally specific ways, often making mistakes but equally often getting things right?

Afraid they did not get anything wrong.

Do you worship the Bible or do you worship Christ?

The Word.

The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life. You can't serve two masters.

Nor can you live unless you die first.

 

[savedandhappy1]

That's okay that you may ask me to repeat what I believe. I realize that not everyone reads every thread.

For me being a Christian is not a doctrine, or a creed, but a practice. It's a way of living. I adhere to no theological creed. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus simply because he was a wise teacher. I do not deify Jesus. I do not believe that Jesus was any more divine than the rest of us are. I do not worry about salvation. I am a Universalist, and I believe all sentient beings are saved, though I hold this belief lightly, because I don't know what happens after death. I am happy to wait and see. I do not know what heaven is like or if there is a heaven. I do not believe in hell.

I hope that is helpful in illuminating something about my faith.

Yes it does. Thank You.

I guess my next question would be how can you follow the teachings of Christ when you have to get them from the Bible that you don't think is accurate?

Also, again Christian means follower of Christ. So if He was just a wise teacher, you would be following a man that is no more divine than the rest of us.

Thank You for sharing your beliefs, even if to me it seems more confusing and..........................well to me it would make me live a life of concern if not fear. There would be no hope or promise, and that would make for a very...not sure if there is a word for what I am trying to discribe.

I guess it would be like I told this atheist once. If you are right and there is no God then I will die and not know it, but if I am right then you will die and be standing before the God you rejected. That always saddens me to think that there are so many people who will reject Him and end up in hell.

May the Lord show Himself to you.