What was the most important battle in world history?

Bingley · Jul 28, 2004

Palatka44 said:
I'm with Jayem on this issue. However many that latter came to hold the office that Constantine left abused and corrupted their position to the point that Unification was forced on those that did not wish to join the Holy Roman Empire.

Unification of what? The Holy Roman Empire (which Voltaire described as "Neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire") was founded by Charlemagne in 800. Constantine's successors petered out in the West in 453 when Romulus Augustulus was deposed and in 1453 in the East when Constantinople fell to the Turks.

jayem · Jul 30, 2004

This whole list is rather Eurocentric. Though I don't think I can say it's the most important ever, this one certainly was pivotal in European history. And I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned Waterloo. Imagine how different Europe may be had Napoleon not been stopped from dominating the continent.

USincognito · Jul 30, 2004

jayem said:
This whole list is rather Eurocentric.

Unfortunately, given Europe's dominance of world events over the last 1000 years, even driving the date of "important" battles back will ultimately lead to battles that effected Europe.

Even if you get back to Joshua's conquest of Caanan, it ultimately will lead to Christianity, and a Christian Rome resulting in... more Eurocentrism.

I'm going to agree with the others that concur on Thermopyle and Salamis in tandem. I still think that Persian incursions into Eastern Europe, and possibly as far as Rome might have changed history more than any other battle or battles.

Xen_Antares · Jul 30, 2004

USincognito said:
I'd toss in Manzikert (1071) and Vienna (1683) as being the other two key battles in the military conflicts between Christendom and Islam.

Good Night, I was about to say the same exact thing. Manzikert was basically the end of the Byzantine Empire (I know it lasted until 1453), Islam ran rampant over Antatolia, and Eastern Europe. The Battle of Vienna was the end of Ottoman Expansion into Europe, thus preserving Christianity. Had Vienna fallen, we could have seen an Islamic Germany, Poland, and Russia, perhaps the Ottomans would have marched into Rome, effectively ending Christianity in Eastern Europe.

Real Corona · Jul 30, 2004

To end the Euro Centrism I'll through in Midway.

CJ.23 · Jul 30, 2004

Tours, 732AD.

cj x

jesusisahippy · Jul 30, 2004

Unfortunately, given Europe's dominance of world events over the last 1000 years, even driving the date of "important" battles back will ultimately lead to battles that effected Europe.

wow what world are you living in?
i dont think europe was "dominating" during the 14th century when 1/3 of its population died due to plague
i'd say it caught up to china and surpassed it around the 16th to 17th centuries
so i'd say it dominated for 350 years between 1600 and 1950

however, since the orient is pretty much china for 3000 years fighting amongst themselves and then japan for 2000 years doing the same thing and then fighting each other for 100 (and korea is in there somewhere, and the mongols), there aren't really any really important battles that would drastically change the modern world

hmm, most important battle, i'd say this was a silent one
its where the mongols decided not to conquer europe and parts of the middle east because they were too "barbarian"

jgarden · Jul 30, 2004

jayem said:
This whole list is rather Eurocentric ...........

We are not taught a balanced view of world history, and much of the development of China and India, 2 of the most important early civilizations is relegated to obscurity.

Based on WW2 alone, I think its a toss up between Stalingrad and Midway. Both drained the Germans and Japanese respectively of their ability to win an offensive war.

USincognito · Jul 31, 2004

jesusisahippy said:
wow what world are you living in?

The world of today. Not a world of alternate histories. The simple fact is that Europe (and the U.S.) came to dominate world history during the Age of Discovery. The fact that this is so doesn't denigrate the Dragon Ships or Ahoka, but we're looking at the most important battle in history that lead through time to where we are today.

Because of that fact, we must concentrate in historical battles that effected European history because that history most effects where we are today.

Real Corona · Jul 31, 2004

jesusisahippy said:
its where the mongols decided not to conquer europe and parts of the middle east because they were too "barbarian"

Or because Ogadai died and they had to go back and elect a new leader.

Peiper · Jul 31, 2004

There are so many pivotal battles that have occurred in history, from the Teutoburger Wald in 9 CE, and the Battle of Hastings on the 14th of October in 1066 CE, to the Battle of Stalingrad on the 19th of August in 1942 to the 2nd of February 1943 CE. However, there seems to be a marked characteristic that becomes apparent when perusing the list of historic battles to determine which is the Greatest Battle.

The battle must not be merely an internal dispute within the Western Nations. Rather, the greatest battle has to have been a battle between the Western Tradition and the Oriental. Where the Oriental civilizations were forced back thus saving the cradle of Western Civilization.

We owe much to our forefathers, who on many occasions, came together despite their differences to repel the Oriental invaders from the Western Lands. We would do well to honor them by continuing to extol those very Western traditions of secularism, rationalism, republican virtue, libertarian civics, science, and law. My compliments to the originator of this thread.

jesusisahippy · Jul 31, 2004

what?
are you talking about the mongols or muslims or just being racist?

The world of today. Not a world of alternate histories. The simple fact is that Europe (and the U.S.) came to dominate world history during the Age of Discovery. The fact that this is so doesn't denigrate the Dragon Ships or Ahoka, but we're looking at the most important battle in history that lead through time to where we are today.

i was referring to your statement where you stated that europe dominated for the last 1000 years when it most certainly did not dominate until, as you said, the age of discovery

Peiper · Aug 1, 2004

jesusisahippy:

"are you talking about the mongols or muslims"

I am assuming that this comment was directed to my post.

What is meant by the Western Tradition? The phrase is usually associated with the cultural tradition that traces its origins to Greek thought. Included in this tradition is deductive reasoning, individualism, and the rule of law .

Invasion by any Eastern peoples, who, historically, did not value these principles and who largely preferred mysticism and despotic autocracies or theocracies, could have meant an end to this tradition.

or just being racist?

What does race have to do with advent and development of individualism, civics, the rule of law, science, and rationalism? There were and are a plurality of ethnicities represented within Western Civilization. The last time I checked, thoughts of a particular type and race were not mutually exclusive. In the future, do not to resort to Ad Hominem attacks.

jesusisahippy · Aug 1, 2004

What is meant by the Western Tradition? The phrase is usually associated with the cultural tradition that traces its origins to Greek thought. Included in this tradition is deductive reasoning, individualism, and the rule of law .

...i guess china's technological advances didn't really happen, nor did its flourishing culture while europe was in the dark ages during 1200 bc, 400 ad, and the majority of the middle ages

Invasion by any Eastern peoples, who, historically, did not value these principles and who largely preferred mysticism and despotic autocracies or theocracies, could have meant an end to this tradition

i guess you're not counting the roman empire, or the kingdoms of the middle ages, or any of the people who lived in western europe prior to the romans (eg celts, etruscans, vikings before christianity)

What does race have to do with advent and development of individualism, civics, the rule of law, science, and rationalism? There were and are a plurality of ethnicities represented within Western Civilization. The last time I checked, thoughts of a particular type and race were not mutually exclusive. In the future, do not to resort to Ad Hominem attacks.[/quote

asking if you are being racist does not mean im attacking you...your point was simply unclear

Peiper · Aug 1, 2004

"i guess china's technological advances didn't really happen..."

Why must you create Straw Men? I never asserted that China did not develop technology. However, China was always an autocracy. I will always hold republican values superior to those of an autocracy.

"i guess you're not counting the roman empire, or the kingdoms of the middle ages, or any of the people who lived in western europe prior to the romans (eg celts, etruscans, vikings before christianity)"

You're quick. Imperialism and Feudalism were definitely impediments to the development of the Western Tradition. However, you are wrong about the peoples of Northern Europe. There were several pre-Christian democratic traditions in amongst those peoples. Several of which are still in existence today. The Isle of Man has the "Oldest Continuously Democratic Parliament in the World," the Tynwald. I would also argue that the Western Tradition occurred in spite of Christianity (an eastern religion itself), not because of it.

"asking if you are being racist does not mean im attacking you..."

So you were asking in a nice way? What world do you live

Individual-KesTrel · Aug 1, 2004

I think the first battle we had on earth was probally the most important. Because it just created that dumb idea that violence can be used as a solution to problems, rather than the fact that it is a problem.

I think the most important battles were staged by Martin Luther King Jr. one of few who knows how to battle.

Peiper · Aug 1, 2004

Some things are worth fighting and dying for.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
~Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.

rooster · Aug 2, 2004

Peiper said:
The battle must not be merely an internal dispute within the Western Nations. Rather, the greatest battle has to have been a battle between the Western Tradition and the Oriental. Where the Oriental civilizations were forced back thus saving the cradle of Western Civilization.

We owe much to our forefathers, who on many occasions, came together despite their differences to repel the Oriental invaders from the Western Lands. We would do well to honor them by continuing to extol those very Western traditions of secularism, rationalism, republican virtue, libertarian civics, science, and law. My compliments to the originator of this thread.

Your generalization of orientalism is quite distasteful.

Anyway i would pick Arbela. It allowed hellene culture and thought to overflow into West Asia and Egypt where it was to be incubated by the byzantines and the arabs and re-released by Ummayad Spain and after the fall of Constantinople.

But for a battle that truly resonates through the world, probably Pearl Harbour.

TScott · Aug 2, 2004

Peiper said:
There are so many pivotal battles that have occurred in history, from the Teutoburger Wald in 9 CE, and the Battle of Hastings on the 14th of October in 1066 CE, to the Battle of Stalingrad on the 19th of August in 1942 to the 2nd of February 1943 CE. However, there seems to be a marked characteristic that becomes apparent when perusing the list of historic battles to determine which is the Greatest Battle.

The battle must not be merely an internal dispute within the Western Nations. Rather, the greatest battle has to have been a battle between the Western Tradition and the Oriental. Where the Oriental civilizations were forced back thus saving the cradle of Western Civilization.

We owe much to our forefathers, who on many occasions, came together despite their differences to repel the Oriental invaders from the Western Lands. We would do well to honor them by continuing to extol those very Western traditions of secularism, rationalism, republican virtue, libertarian civics, science, and law. My compliments to the originator of this thread.

I'm a little confused here. None of the battles you have listed have much to do with your criteria. "Orientals" were not involved in any of them.

intrepid · Aug 2, 2004

The late historian Stephen Ambrose called D-Day (6/6/44) the most important day of the 20th century so I'll go with that for now.

What was the most important battle in world history?

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